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 Post subject: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-28 1:52 am 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
I love Kothophed, Soul Hoarder. It combines drawing cards with a huge demon and a cool "dangerous" drawback. This is the first mono-black general I've wanted to build. It seems like it enables a deck where removal doubles as card draw, and all I need to prevent Kothophed's ability from killing me is a mix of life-gain and sac outlets.


EDIT: List updated to 2/26/2016

Kothophed, MBC.

removal :
tragic slip
go for the throat
smallpox (draw six for 2 mana!)
shriekmaw
fleshbag marauder (mvp)
merciless executioner (mvp)
dystopia
slum reaper (fleshbag #3)
hellfire
living death
dictate of erebos
archfiend of depravity
kagemaro, first to suffer
thief of blood
massacre wurm
reaper from the abyss
overseer of the damned
sheoldred, whispering one
butcher of malakir

this removal should be at least two of : 1) on a creature or otherwise reusable; 2) kill more than one thing; 3) hit black / artifact / indestructible / hexproof guys. Tragic Slip and Go for the Throat are cheap enough that they're ok.


reanimation :
mimic vat
xiahou dun
corpse dance (this card is nuts)
infernal offering
wake the dead
puppeteer clique (mvp)
dawn of the dead
sepulchral primordial
mikaeus, the unhallowed

A lot of the reanimation steals opponent's dudes, which doubles as a way to use opponent's resources to deal with enchantments & artifacts.


utility :
skullclamp
darkness
demonic tutor
shadows of the past - this is a silly combo with kothophed's trigger
pilgrim's eye
grim haruspex
phyrexian rager
matter reshaper
dark prophecy
agent of erebos
mindslicer - another of black's "utility" and "versatility" cards
promise of power
rune-scarred demon

life gain :
bloodchief ascension
sangromancer - also considered dross harvester; not sure which one is better.
gray merchant of asphodel - primary win con
kokusho, the evening star - primary win con


so, this is "black's" suite of versatile answers :
phyrexian revoker - i like this card; also was looking for 2-drops
ratchet bomb - its a 2-drop
smokestack
all is dust
unstable obelisk


ramp :
sol ring
expedition map
wayfarer's bauble
culling the weak
sacrifice
mind stone
jet medallion
thought vessel
fellwar stone
soldevi adnate
sword of the animist
burnished hart
ashnod's altar
extraplanar lens
thran dynamo
solemn simulacrum
crypt ghast
liliana of the dark realms
caged sun

land :
cabal coffers
urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
nykthos, shrine to nyx
reliquary tower
terrain generator
strip mine - triggers Kothophed
diamond valley
high market
bojuka bog
22 swamps


I've built this up and gotten some games in. Ideally there's some early ramp, a utility dork or two like phyrexian rager or pilgrim's eye, then I can play Kothophed early, and then start blowing stuff up. Ideally every kill spell draws more cards; into more kill spells and more eventually into kokusho or gray merchant recursion, and i'm home free. Most of the kill spells need to kill multiple things; the deck is about half mana/ramp so 1-in-2 cards are just mana, and that needs to be drawn through quickly.

graveyard and tokens: I've noticed, now that I've built a mono black deck, that its very tempting to include a bunch of gy recursion and token producers. I feel like my deck already gets shut down by stuff like rest in peace (nothing dies, so Kothophed doesn't draw a card), so I don't want to lean TOO heavily on the GY. So I don't want to do things like bloodghast, golgari thug, hell's caretaker, or dedicated reanimation like buried alive, victimize, tempt with immortality, stitch together, etc. Also I'm not going for a broad token theme, so I haven't gone in for : bitterblossom, grave titan, sengir autocrat, pawn of ulamog; and this in turn makes some combo gy/token cards worse too: dread return, army of the damned. I also skipped skullclamp, but that should maybe go in.

raw card draw: another thing I might usually include in a black deck is stuff that draws cards, like phyrexian arena, graveborn muse, promise of power, (necropotence, if your meta is savage), and dark prophecy. These all trade 1 life for 1 card, so it's the same deal Kothophed gives you. With Kothophed, tho, I'd rather just play cards that blow stuff up and draw cards that way. I am including dark prophecy cause it just seems TOO good, but I'm skipping these others for now.



marginal or untested cards :

shadowborn demon - is like a worse shriekmaw. he costs 5 all the time, and the sac clause is kind of a drawback.
hex - man, this seems like a winner : six mana, kill six (even black/artifact creatures), draw six, lose six life. What a deal! In practice it's been bad cause there aren't six targets (hexproof, etc) or a lot of the targets regenerate.
ivory tower - this isn't that much life, generally. But it is a decent 1-drop. Although all the ramp makes me much more interested in emptying my hand early. Maybe drop it for skullclamp?


considerations :

heartless summoning. I had this in there for a while; it's cool cause most of the creatures just have ETB abilities or aren't there to attack. But, it also makes fleshbag marauder recursion a lot worse, in addition to killing phyrexian revoker. I dunno if the inability to stick fleshbag on a mimic vat is worth potentially speeding out kothophed 2 turns earlier. Probably?
herald of leshrac. This was just in there because it combos with smokestack (kothophed draws of a permanent that your opponent owns so you can sac the stolen lands). But, it always sort of seems slow; and this combo is unlikely to actually happen.
dystopia. This seems like a top contender for repeated destruction of stuff, off of which to draw cards; except a lot of people seem to play grixis near me. This may go back in. Also probably perish, cause one of my friends has a nigh-unbeatable elf-ball deck.
magus of the abyss. Seem better than just the abyss, since this guy can be sacced to himself, reanimated, and my deck doesn't produce a ton of tokens. But, also, seems like a much slower fleshbag marauder.
curse of the cabal. this only gives you one sacc'd permanent every two turn cycles, which is way too slow. Actually hardcasting it is interesting; but I can't imagine someone wouldn't counter or redirect it.
harvester of souls. six mana and does the same thing my general does; if he wasn't exactly the same mana cost I'd probably include it.
psychosis crawler. one of my favorite win-cons in combo decks, this seems sort of cute here. Except that it doesn't kill anything and just functions as a pure combo piece, and is a little expensive to set up. If I have to first cast Kothophed, then cast psychosis crawler, then cast a big kill spell, that's probably 3 turns of delaying dealing with something on the board that needs to be killed.
oblivion stone, damnation, black sun's zenith, mutilate, decree of pain: I'm not super excited about boardwipes that kill kothophed also, even though he does trigger off everything that dies with him. Kothophed's expensive to recast. And I actually like my utility dorks, so I'm not super excited about giving everything -2/-2 or -4/-4, or whatever.


So... why is nobody talking about Kothophed? Is he not THE BEST CARD for EDH in the whole magic origins set? :)

_________________
Decklists:
Kothophed (mono black control, ETB abuse)
Teferi, Temporal Archmage (blue pillowfort superfriends)
Glint-Eye Nephilim (combat tricks, card draw, & creature pump)
Oloro Upkeep Tribal (enchantment-based control)
and more:Decklists


Last edited by mmcgeach on 2016-Feb-26 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-28 2:25 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
As soon i get on it will go in my Liliana, Heretical Healerdeck. Kaalia was broken up otherwise she would want him as well. A friend got a prerelease version that is going into one of her decks.

I think he is good, but not sure if he is the best cars in Origins.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-28 6:16 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
SLUM REAPER!!!

How you could call Fleshbag the deck's MVP and yet forget his big brother is beyond me.

Also a deck that relies as heavily on reanimation as you do needs what I know several people call the "Core Four": Reanimate, Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, and Necromancy. Beacon of Unrest and Dread Return are also suggestions that I can't help but name, and Geth, Lord of the Vault is also amazing in a deck where everything is dying.


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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-28 6:18 am 
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Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
From my first quick look, I'd say you're missing Whip of Erebos. Also, have you thought about Rescue from the Underworld? Instant reanimation with extra draw :)

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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-28 10:34 am 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
Altar of Shadows, because 14 mana to kill something is always legit.

Yeah, probably not, but it was worth a try. I'm on a crusade to prove to my friends that this card is not terrible. So far I'm not winning.

Aside from that, if you're looking for a solid lifegain replacement for Ivory Tower, my whole playgroup has had incredible success with Crypt Incursion. It's a Bojuka Bog and heals you for max and a half most of the time, and all at instant speed!

Reiver Demon looks like a boardwipe you might be looking for. It's a solid piece with heartless if you go that route, and while it doesn't do much reanimated, its usually a great target for things like Oversold Cemetery and Palace Siege, which also seem like they'd be decent includes (the siege a bit more than the cemetery admittedly, but it still seems alright.) In Garruk's Wake also isn't incredibly horrible, though that mana cost is a pain.

With so many things dying, Kuon, Ogre Ascendant could put in some solid work, though he is hard to fuel a comeback with if you have him stuck on your side of the board after a boardwipe. On that note, you might want to add some things like Claws of Gix, Infernal Tribute, or Reprocess.

Undercity Plague, Nettlevine Blight, and Phyrexian Obliterator all seem like they push the agenda you're going for. Last Laugh also looks like fun, but a bit iffy on that one. You should also probably run Spine of Ish Sah, because those enchantments are brutal. Remember, mono-black decks losing to Rest in Peace, True Conviction, Asceticism, and Privileged Position is all well and good, but intimidate and landwalk get thrown out the window because WotC doesn't want people to lose "just because they were playing a certain color".

But hey, at least we get to kill planeswalkers! You know, that thing everyone else can do with, uh, damage...

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"Expect nothing but scorn, flattery, and lies. And never turn your back on him." - The Northern Paladin

Bladewing the Risen - MTG: Blood Dragon - OST by Powerglove
Dosan the Falling Leaf - Mono-Green Accelerator
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter - Feed it to Vish
Toshiro Umezawa - Budget Creatureless
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher - Combo Jund
Marath, Will of the Wild - Beast-Mode Tribal
Scion of the Ur-Dragon - Mortal Combat Dredge
Kamahl & Jeska - Tag Team Voltron


Last edited by Zirilan of the Claw on 2015-Jul-29 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-28 10:47 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Don't forget you can run Platinum Emperion and just ignore the drawback on Kothophed. PE into Plague Wind? Yes, please!

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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-28 10:52 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm missing Big Game Hunter


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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-28 11:48 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Is it just me, or does Hunted Horror, Akroan Horse, and Forbidden Orchard seem possibly good with Kothophed? Because the tokens are owned by your opponents, and give you fodder to kill off for cards?

It might be a little too cute for a dedicated deck, I suppose, while also not really helping you out with clearing their board via Fleshbag effects. Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-28 1:26 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Segrus wrote:
Is it just me, or does Hunted Horror, Akroan Horse, and Forbidden Orchard seem possibly good with Kothophed? Because the tokens are owned by your opponents, and give you fodder to kill off for cards?

It might be a little too cute for a dedicated deck, I suppose, while also not really helping you out with clearing their board via Fleshbag effects. Just a thought.

Would turn Night of Souls' Betrayal into a poor man's Phyrexian Arena.

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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-29 5:54 am 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
Oh man! So many good things to talk about! Who loves Black Cards? ME ME ME

@Inkeyes22: I think liliana, heretical healer would be pretty good in this deck. I don't really want to pay 25$ for one, tho... might see if it declines shortly.

@Uktabi_Kong: Yeah, Slum Reaper sounds good. I forgot that card existed. Fleshbag and merciless executioner have been just awesome so far. It's getting to be a tight list, tho. Will have to find something to cut.

@more reanimation : I did have a tempt with immortality and infernal offering in there and found that with more dedicated reanimation I wanted more ways to just dump/tutor/fill creatures into the GY. Cause otherwise that reanimation was dead in my hand. So I'd have to play buried alive and golgari thug and more discard outlets and cycling jank like scion of darkness. Also those are all one-shot reanimation spells; stuff like corpse dance or puppeteer clique is way easier to reuse. Of course, I really do like infernal offering; it does a lot of things this deck likes; but at 5 mana it's... maybe one mana too many?

@Antis: I also tried whip of erebos briefly but I cut it before I got in any real games. Most of the time I'd rather my guys didn't attack; and the whip seems slightly overcosted again... I do like the built in reanimation, tho. Might be the right card.

@Antis: I dunno about rescue from the underworld... again 5 is a lot to leave open for basically a sacrifice effect (that part is instant; the reanimation happens at your next upkeep). Not sure what you mean about extra draw. (?)

@Zirilan of the claw: Crypt incursion is a reasonable idea. Although it seems a tad situational. Reiver demon is maybe good... I dunno what the upper limit for mana cost on board wipes should be. I'm not actually using any reanimation that brings anything back to my hand; but actually palace siege does seem worth a shot. I can cast fleshbag every turn? Yes please! I thought about garruk's wake and all; sometimes there's enough mana, but usually cheaper fare would be better.

I think kuon's powerlevel is like this: Fleshbag Marauder > Magus of the Abyss > Kuon, Ogre Ascendant > The Abyss. Kuon's hard to get to flip, and kind of a problem for this deck with w/o adding janky tokens. I did try him a couple times, and he was just a 2/4 chump blocker. :/

Compare Undercity Plague to Smallpox. I'd have to cast undercity plague THREE TIMES to get the value of a 2-mana Smallpox in a 4-player game. Also undercity plague and phyrexian obliterator have a reliance on attacking that the rest of my deck doesn't. This lets me save deck space by skipping stuff that provides haste and protects my attackers and lets them through (no lightning greaves, no swiftfoot boots, no rogue's passage, no swords of value, etc).

I think Spine of Ish Sah's power level is like this: all is dust > oblivion stone > karn liberated > unstable obelisk > spine of ish sah > ratchet bomb. But obelisk costs 3 and ratchet bomb costs 2. Also i'd probably go back to dystopia before spine. I just have no way to recur the spine. I'm not playing Daretti.

@Zirilan of the claw: Yeah, i'm a little tired of the color pie restrictions black has. Everytime green gets cheap removal that targets any kind of permanent and massive card draw I throw up a little in my mouth.

@green slime: I like that, big game hunter, but with more discard outlets. Also I was a little afraid it would accidentally kill Kothophed sometime, since it's not a "may" trigger. I dunno. It may just be better than shadowborn demon. Hmm.

_________________
Decklists:
Kothophed (mono black control, ETB abuse)
Teferi, Temporal Archmage (blue pillowfort superfriends)
Glint-Eye Nephilim (combat tricks, card draw, & creature pump)
Oloro Upkeep Tribal (enchantment-based control)
and more:Decklists


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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-29 6:00 am 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
Also, a Pro-tip from play last night:

You can sacrifice Mindslicer with Corpse Dance on the stack. Then mindslicer's trigger resolves, you discard your hand, which includes (say) butcher of malakir. Then corpse dance resolves and butcher is the top creature of your GY, so it bounces into play; and corpse dance's buyback puts it back into your hand. Then you sac Butcher to something and draw three cards off Kothophed.

_________________
Decklists:
Kothophed (mono black control, ETB abuse)
Teferi, Temporal Archmage (blue pillowfort superfriends)
Glint-Eye Nephilim (combat tricks, card draw, & creature pump)
Oloro Upkeep Tribal (enchantment-based control)
and more:Decklists


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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-29 1:02 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
mmcgeach wrote:
Yeah, i'm a little tired of the color pie restrictions black has. Everytime green gets cheap removal that targets any kind of permanent and massive card draw I throw up a little in my mouth


Yes! Exactly!

_________________
Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-29 2:45 pm 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
Inkeyes22 wrote:
mmcgeach wrote:
Yeah, i'm a little tired of the color pie restrictions black has. Everytime green gets cheap removal that targets any kind of permanent and massive card draw I throw up a little in my mouth


Yes! Exactly!

The part that really rubs me the wrong way every time I read or hear it is how Wizards is still towing the line that black is the color that "can do anything" when the only other slices that have fewer options are red and colorless, and red's slice of the pie has been dramatically expanding lately.

I mean hell, it took WotC until Dragon's Maze to clear black to get a 1/3 vanilla for 2, because, as they mentioned in their limited preview article, that was clearly outside of black's color pie (Bane Alley Blackguard, for the record).
mmcgeach wrote:
I think Spine of Ish Sah's power level is like this: all is dust > oblivion stone > karn liberated > unstable obelisk > spine of ish sah > ratchet bomb. But obelisk costs 3 and ratchet bomb costs 2. Also i'd probably go back to dystopia before spine. I just have no way to recur the spine. I'm not playing Daretti.

While all of this is completely true, the first three options cost a couple of bucks whereas I happen to have like seven Spines lying around somewhere. We aren't all made of Karns you know! Some of us make do. Spine also combos with Infernal Tribute, in a janky "wait, what the hell are you playing?" kind of way.

Have to second Sid's callout for Night of Souls' Betrayal. Hell, I go so far as to run Curse of Death's Hold on top of that. I know it's mean, but I love throwing that on the Rhys player. Also looks like Patron of the Nezumi would be fun in here, but the mana cost on it is pretty brutal if you don't have rats and it is usually just a worse massacre wurm. It sucks to tap out for it and have it die to a follow-up right before you were about to cast the big sweeper, but if you need another, much more derpy massacre wurm, well...

And run Grave Pact damnit. You have the other two, quit being a pansy and triple down! And don't give me that crap about how it makes you a target. You're playing mono-black control. You're already a target.

One last thing: Withering Boon. They never see it coming.

_________________
"Expect nothing but scorn, flattery, and lies. And never turn your back on him." - The Northern Paladin

Bladewing the Risen - MTG: Blood Dragon - OST by Powerglove
Dosan the Falling Leaf - Mono-Green Accelerator
Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter - Feed it to Vish
Toshiro Umezawa - Budget Creatureless
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher - Combo Jund
Marath, Will of the Wild - Beast-Mode Tribal
Scion of the Ur-Dragon - Mortal Combat Dredge
Kamahl & Jeska - Tag Team Voltron


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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-29 6:00 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
mmcgeach wrote:
Oh man! So many good things to talk about! Who loves Black Cards? ME ME ME


I love MBC, but I can't get myself to play MBC in EDH because my favorite MBC card is Haunting Echoes... but then again, the last time I played MBC was a Legacy deck called Trainwreck.

Maybe you want Tendrils of Corruption or some Consume Spirit effect as removal/finisher? I like Profane Command because it's versatile.

If you really, really want Kothoped triggers, play Tombstone Stairwell or Infernal Genesis.

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 Post subject: Re: Kothophed : MBC
AgePosted: 2015-Jul-29 11:20 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Shabbaman wrote:
If you really, really want Kothoped triggers, play Tombstone Stairwell

I'd be very hesitant to do that. It sure would generate a lot of triggers, but without Platinum Emperion or a huge amount of lifegain, it stands a decent chance of just killing you before you get your turn back, and even if it doesn't, it stands a decent chance of decking you as well.

Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
Spine also combos with Infernal Tribute, in a janky "wait, what the hell are you playing?" kind of way.

I believe you mean in a "OMG, that's awesome!" kind of way.

Zirilan of the Claw wrote:
And run Grave Pact damnit.

+1.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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