thaumaturge wrote:
The Spike that fogs is seriously worth considering. I have buddy in my regular group that's been running that one in Ghave since, like, the day the Ghave deck went on sale, and I gave him shit for it for like a year before I realized the damned thing was actually pretty effective. I actually groan whenever I see it. I don't even groan when I see a Consecrated Sphinx.
I did recently play a game where I was up against a player with
Constant Mists and it was really annoying. I can see how a repeatable
Fog would be good. I'll see if I can make room for it.
Damian Magecraft wrote:
Concerning the Sieges:
Palace Siege also gives a measure of removal insurance (at least on the Kahns side of it).
A very good point. And, if necessary, could be used to get me out of a pinch. I'll have to try and get one.
Oddjob0KC wrote:
The lack of
Forgotten Ancient and
Phantom Nishoba might need to be rectified. ... but then again "phantom" creatures are sorely under used.
Yeah, probably. Forgotten Ancient was in the
previous version of the deck but I didn't prioritise it in this one. The Phantoms I'd love to run but, as with a lot of things, it's finding the room to do that. I'll see what I can do.
mmcgeach wrote:
slow /contingent cards:
retribution of the ancients (i want this to work, but its sooo conditional)
dromoka, the eternal (bolster is a lot worse than I thought it would be)
pretty sure i'd drop stuff like :
cruel sadist,
daru stinger,
drakestown forgotten,
festercreep, maybe
korozda gorgon.
Outlast guys. Since outlast is sorcery-speed, it doesn't combo with
seedborn muse effects. Although it does work with
thousand-year elixir.
I do actually think that Retribution of the Ancients is worth running, because it's very mana efficient. The mistake I've made with my first draft of this list (the one you can currently see) is that I've got lots of creatures that go, "X, remove a counter: do one thing." That will get very expensive very quickly, especially with how many of them I have. But, if I run Retribution, I don't need any of them and can replicate their effect with ANY of my creatures with counters and all for the low, low cost of B.
I don't own a copy of Dromoka but, if I did, she probably wouldn't be in the deck anyway as her ability works best with more Dragons. I'm starting to come to the conclusion that my creature picks in this deck are going to have to be very specific, that I can't just bung any old creature in the deck because it has the words "+1/+1 counter" on it. And I don't think that Dromoka would make the cut.
Cruel Sadist, Daru Stinger, Drakestown Forgotten, and Korozda Gorgon are some of those creatures I was just talking about, the ones that let you do things with your counters but take a whole bunch of mana to do it. I'm going to cut them. Festercreep I'm still on the fence over as it's potentially a board wipe if I have enough counters and can generate enough mana.
The Outlast guys are to give extra abilities to all the creatures in the deck. The fact that they can Outlast themselves to give them extra counters is just a bonus side effect. Having said that, the Thousand-Year Elixir might be something to look into, especially if I include more Seedborn Muse effects other than just Ivorytusk Fortress.
mmcgeach wrote:
trickery:
dromoka's command: the FIGHT mechanic is really good in this list (particularly if we're running stuff like
archangel of thune,
phyrexian obliterator, and
high priest of penance). Also it can give a counter; and the possibility of stopping a
blasphemous act seems really relevant.
abzan charm: this is at best a one-for-one and at worse a spell that gives 2 counters for 3 mana... doesn't seem worth running.
I don't yet have a Dromoka's Command, but it's definitely one I want to add to this deck. I've had other advice that if I'm going to include Fight effects then I should have more cards that make them more efficient, such as things that grant Deathtouch or Indestructible, recurral, or cards like
Vigor,
Ring of Xathrid,
Phytohydra,
Protean Hydra, and
Sekki, Seasons' Guide that all gain benefits like those cards you suggested. Most of those I don't own (and the ones I don't are somewhat pricey for me) so I don't know how well I can take that advice and use it.
Abzan Charm is there for flexibility more than anything else. Yes, all of the individual functions aren't anything terribly great, but overall it gives me an Exile spell, a draw spell, and extra counters in a single card.
mmcgeach wrote:
wrath protection:
inspiring call : I haven't tried this yet but I have to imagine it'll be awesome
soul of new phyrexia : this seems legit, particularly as an activation out of the GY. Although since we have no recursion (I can't find any recursion that's remotely on-theme) I'm tempted to run
rest in peace.
abzan ascendancy : a lot of mana for 1 counter and tokens I don't want.
I've been convinced to give Inspiring Call a go. Mostly because I first wrote up the cards I wanted for the deck before Fate Reforged came out and I didn't really have a good look at the Dragons of Tarkir ones after it was released.
I'm probably going to cut the Soul. It was an easy solution to a problem that I can find other solutions for. As for Rest in Peace, it doesn't help that I just traded my last two copies away. I'm not certain that it's worth running dedicated slots for graveyard hate, though. I'll be removing both the Relic of Progenitus and the Leylien of the Void when I revise this deck, and probably replace them with cards that have other functions too (such as
Scavenging Ooze).
I initially dismissed Abzan Ascendency too, but I've been convinced that it might be worth running. To begin with, each creature on your side of the battlefield gets a counter when it enters play, not just a single one. Also, it gives you a measure of protection against wrath effects since you'll start up with a bunch of evasive creatures.
mmcgeach wrote:
phantoms:
phantom nishoba seems ok if there's a lifegain sub-theme. Otherwise its sort of too expensive for a guy that doesn't have haste and just attacks. But with a
doubling season effect, then it's totally worth it.
phantom flock: I thought about this because there's so very little flying in the deck; but maybe its better to just run stuff like
whirlwind.
phantom nantuko: maybe ok if you're running all the
seedborn muse effects, but still, it's just a dumb beater w/o evasion.
That's pretty much what I thought on the Phantoms. Until I opened up the deck to Black I was considering the Flock, simply to have something with Flying on-theme. Now, I'm not so sure. Having said that, the Phantoms are pretty much immune to damage in this deck, so it might be worth running them anyway.
mmcgeach wrote:
planeswalkers:
ajani steadfast: better in a deck that wants to drop a ton of tokens or over-commit to the board.
ajani, caller of the pride: maybe I'm under-valuing this, but it seems like one +1/+1 counter isn't that great.
ajani, mentor of heroes: I think I'll try this if I can get one. That it puts 3 counters on one creature really makes this awesome. Also a fantastic spot on the curve to come down after
daghatar, and the card advantage gets past draw hosers like
spirit of the labyrinth.
new liliana flip card from the magic origins set: Looks awesome. Reanimator on a stick. Also, I'm not sure exactly, but I think Liliana flips after a wrath that kills her and something else.
The Ajanis are the only Planeswalkers that really deal with +1/+1 counters, so there's not a lot of choice to begin with. Caller of the Pride worked really well in the previous version of this deck in conjunction with
Mikaeus the Lunarch (as between them they'd give a counter to everyone on my battlefield). Mentor of Heroes would go straight into the deck if I had a copy but for now I'll just have to make do with the other two.
Ajani Goldmane might go in too, if I can get a copy, because that -1 ability seems pretty good.
Liliana, Heretical Healer will NOT flip after a wrath. Her ability will trigger and go on the stack but by the time it resolves her card'll be in the graveyard and will be a different object, so she won't exile then return transformed.
I might include
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon simply because he's extremely versatile. Plus, with the improved ramp package I intend to use, I can probably make it up to 8 mana pretty easily.
Garruk, Apex Predator is something else I'm considering for a similar reason.
mmcgeach wrote:
temptations:
gleam of authority: I'm tempted to try this. It combos with
illusionist's bracers (which I already want on
daghatar) and
seedborn muse effects. Also could land on
high priest of penance and make it immediately dangerous.
Gleam of Authority has the problem of being an aura, which makes it very vulnerable to getting yourself 2-for-1ed by a removal spell. Plus, this deck is full of +1/+1 effects, so if I were to include an aura in the deck I'd want it to do something a lot more powerful than a bunch of Power and Toughness boosts and incidental counter adding. Though, I will admit that putting it on a High Priest does sound rather tasty. If I did that then I'd probably want to drop the
Bane of Progress and add a few things to back it up like
Umbra Mystic,
Spectra Ward, and/or
Greater Auramancy to make it harder to remove the aura and/or the creature it's attached to.
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You've all definitely given me a lot to think about. I'm already revising the deck in light of the suggestions made and will probably have to make some difficult decisions as a result. Thanks for the help everyone
