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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-30 8:50 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
No Glory of Warfare?

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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-30 10:49 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Sid the Chicken wrote:

What do you think you'd take out for it? It's probably true that the deck doesn't really need many static pump effects at all, without also granting a keyword ability, since Anax and Cymede provides pump in spades from the commander zone. Cathars' Crusade is an exception since it just goes bananas in pretty much any setting with token generators.

Unless you're thinking of it in terms of flavor reasons and I don't really have much flavor outside of the Enchantress theme.

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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jun-30 7:08 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-10 4:30 am
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Segrus wrote:
Isabelle wrote:
Is this deck still active? Have you made any updates?

I'm thinking of returning to Anax & Cymede since my meta decided that Feather was unfun to play against. :oops:

Is there anything new you've thought of?

You know, when I got up this morning I was not remotely expecting somebody would be asking about this deck, but I'm glad you did.

Yes, the deck is still active. Yes, I have made an update, yet only a slight one. I'm sorry your meta isn't too happy about Feather--I have a Feather deck myself, and although I haven't gotten a chance to try it out yet I really want to at some point. I recently obtained Aria of Flame and hope to find a place for it.

In any case, my very slight update (which I'll edit in the original post) is removing Call for Unity and adding Smothering Tithe. Once Smothering Tithe was revealed awhile back, I snagged about ten of them before the price went up, and I knew one would make it into this deck. The question came down to "where?" and Call for Unity was the most underperforming card in the deck. With as often as things get destroyed in this deck Call for Unity should be getting me a reasonable power boost; unfortunately, I'd just never get around to playing it (in favor of stronger moves for similar mana), or it'd be overkill. Too expensive to be an Honor of the Pure, too weak to be Eldrazi Monument (which...maybe I should try out sometime).

The thing is I like the deck where it currently stands. It could probably always be a little more tuned--I still have never gotten my hands on Flickering Ward or Mark of Fury, and Divine Visitation is arguably quite juicy (I would consider Gratuitous Violence or Mastery of the Unseen in this case)--but despite this it always plays out very well for me. It just keeps surviving when people think it should have been dead already. It's a deck I'll honestly never take apart.

There's always the problem of meta power level, of course, so I won't be able to help you there as much. Due to my current situation, there are some new commanders I have never played against and I don't regularly play against the power level of decks I used to when I first conceived of this build. It'll obviously never make cEDH level of power, but I also don't think this is well-tuned for the power level just below that. For the...for lack of a better term 75% level and below I think it should do fine.

I'm happy to hear any other thoughts or questions you might have. This is probably my favorite deck to play and I'll gladly listen to criticisms about it.


Well, I have a soft spot for Enchantress (I have WURG one off Kynaios and Tiro and an RB one off Judith), and I've been wanting a Boros deck forever.

I loved Feather, and I hope your meta enjoys her. She was an absolute blast to play. I loved playing Boros and having a full hand. I loved everything about her--but yeah, she could take a bit to close out a game, and her resilience in the grind made my meta hate her.

So I'm going back to A&C, whom I loved. We'll see how I can manage. I've built lots of Enchantress decks over the years, so I'm ... cautiously hopeful.

What is your biggest issue in playing this? Is it wraths wiping you out? Is it just the usual Boros-needs-cards?

What do you think of Chance for Glory in this deck? It's a pet card of mine...


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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-01 7:08 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Isabelle wrote:
Well, I have a soft spot for Enchantress (I have WURG one off Kynaios and Tiro and an RB one off Judith), and I've been wanting a Boros deck forever.

I loved Feather, and I hope your meta enjoys her. She was an absolute blast to play. I loved playing Boros and having a full hand. I loved everything about her--but yeah, she could take a bit to close out a game, and her resilience in the grind made my meta hate her.

So I'm going back to A&C, whom I loved. We'll see how I can manage. I've built lots of Enchantress decks over the years, so I'm ... cautiously hopeful.

What is your biggest issue in playing this? Is it wraths wiping you out? Is it just the usual Boros-needs-cards?

What do you think of Chance for Glory in this deck? It's a pet card of mine...

Biggest issue?...

Probably heavy control decks. Wraths aren't really as bad as you'd think. If you know your meta well, you can bait wraths pretty consistently by only committing a single token generator to the board at a time or holding out and pumping Anax and Cymede alone to dangerous levels (since Anax and Cymede can make commander damage kills possible). And since the bouncing enchantments are generally the most important enchantments in this build, you rarely lose them by popping your hand before the end of turn. Furthermore, there's a lot of recursion for enchantments as a backup (which are really important, since they supplement the lack of card draw Boros runs into).

But if you're up against Azorius control, full of hard removal and counter spells, you'll probably be in for a rough time. They can hold out on counter spells for your card draw effects, and if they play anything increasing the cost of cards...you're probably done for. I don't generally see these styles of deck though, so I often slip under the radar since everybody seems to rate Boros decks as 'bad' and Anax and Cymede as one of the worst Boros commanders.

As for Chance for Glory it's a juicy card, but this build isn't set up to take advantage of it. With a more instant/sorcery build (like the one I linked in the very first post from user Antis), it'll probably do a lot better. Most of my wins with this deck come from outlasting opponents rather than super quick aggro blowouts, so having a single extra turn won't generally help (maybe if you made space for Isochron Scepter + Sundial of the Infinite + Final Fortune).

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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-02 4:04 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-10 4:30 am
Age: Drake
Segrus wrote:
Biggest issue?...

Probably heavy control decks. Wraths aren't really as bad as you'd think. If you know your meta well, you can bait wraths pretty consistently by only committing a single token generator to the board at a time or holding out and pumping Anax and Cymede alone to dangerous levels (since Anax and Cymede can make commander damage kills possible). And since the bouncing enchantments are generally the most important enchantments in this build, you rarely lose them by popping your hand before the end of turn. Furthermore, there's a lot of recursion for enchantments as a backup (which are really important, since they supplement the lack of card draw Boros runs into).

But if you're up against Azorius control, full of hard removal and counter spells, you'll probably be in for a rough time. They can hold out on counter spells for your card draw effects, and if they play anything increasing the cost of cards...you're probably done for. I don't generally see these styles of deck though, so I often slip under the radar since everybody seems to rate Boros decks as 'bad' and Anax and Cymede as one of the worst Boros commanders.

As for Chance for Glory it's a juicy card, but this build isn't set up to take advantage of it. With a more instant/sorcery build (like the one I linked in the very first post from user Antis), it'll probably do a lot better. Most of my wins with this deck come from outlasting opponents rather than super quick aggro blowouts, so having a single extra turn won't generally help (maybe if you made space for Isochron Scepter + Sundial of the Infinite + Final Fortune).


I was afraid of that concerning Chance for Glory. Maybe someday...

In my meta, the Azorius control got hated out faster than Feather did. As in, people would look at the commander in the command zone and groan. Afterward, they'd say, "That deck makes me not even want to play Magic."

(With Feather, one of them put it like this: "It didn't make me hate Magic. It made me hate myself.")

Do you find that you have enough of the "bouncing enchantments"? How many do you need to keep the cycle going?

I do have a Replenish, a Retether, and a Serra's Sanctum from the wreck of my old Daxos deck, so I am hoping I have enough to go with.

What are your "all-stars"? What are the overperforming enchantments in your build?


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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-03 7:34 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Isabelle wrote:
With Feather, one of them put it like this: "It didn't make me hate Magic. It made me hate myself."

Oof. That sounds somehow worse.

Isabelle wrote:
Do you find that you have enough of the "bouncing enchantments"? How many do you need to keep the cycle going?

What are your "all-stars"? What are the overperforming enchantments in your build?

All these great questions. :)

Hm. Yes and no. I've never felt like I didn't have enough, because getting even one is normally enough. Crown of Flames, on its own, is benign. So innocent. So small. People generally LOATHE to have to waste removal to get rid of it. They'd rather save it for big stuff like Assemble the Legion or Helm of the Gods or Cathars' Crusade. Generally I never see them get destroyed, so drawing just a single one is enough. That being said, I could see adding one more to the deck--there's only three (well, 2.5, with Spirit Loop)--so probably Flickering Ward for Spirit Mantle.

As far as all-stars go...well, it's hard to say. Pretty much every card has a purpose and it all works very well in concert. With one fewer card draw engine, the deck would be noticeably worse. One fewer recursion card, you flounder. Fewer token generators, and you'll have a rough time building enough power to get damage through.

But if I have to pick a few, then Anax and Cymede, Cathars' Crusade, and Sun Titan. They have massive impact on the game. Anax and Cymede and Cathars' Crusade for similar reasons, but they both make combat grow out of hand in a very short amount of time--Anax and Cymede's trample addition even more so. Sun Titan is on another level too. Its recursion ability hits like 78% of the deck--including most of the card draw effects, token generators, and all of the bounce enchantments. Hopefully that's kinda answers what you were asking.

In terms of just enchantments, if we put aside Crusade and the bounce enchantments, I'm guessing Smothering Tithe is going to be the new overperforming enchantment. I've haven't seen it play out in this deck, but I have for others and it's busted. Before that, it's likely Sage's Reverie for its huge card draw and pump potential. Close after that, Madcap Skills. Planting it on Anax and Cymede allows them to take out a full third of somebody's commander damage allowance, and the continued boost and virtual unblockability really makes them a heavy hitter early in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 12:31 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-10 4:30 am
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Well, I just threw in what enchantments I could scrounge, since the deck used to be Feather, and I've been through Daxos and Rafiq for Enchantments.

I've got Flickering Ward, Mask of Fury, Crown of Flames, and Conviction. Do you think that's enough?

How many card draw sources do you have? I count the Mesa Enchantress and Kor Spiritdancer, Sram. (I'd already thrown those into my mix, so I was happy to see them on your list.) Do you find that you need wheels?

(Oh, and I love Smothering Tithe, too! Beautiful card!)


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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-04 2:18 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
I loathe Smothering Tithe with a burning hatred. THAT is a card that makes me hate magic.

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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-05 3:16 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I loathe Smothering Tithe with a burning hatred. THAT is a card that makes me hate magic.

Well, I guess I know now what you'd take out for Glory of Warfare. I'm not sure where that intense of reaction is coming from, but fair enough.

Isabelle wrote:
Well, I just threw in what enchantments I could scrounge, since the deck used to be Feather, and I've been through Daxos and Rafiq for Enchantments.

I've got Flickering Ward, Mask of Fury, Crown of Flames, and Conviction. Do you think that's enough?

How many card draw sources do you have? I count the Mesa Enchantress and Kor Spiritdancer, Sram. (I'd already thrown those into my mix, so I was happy to see them on your list.) Do you find that you need wheels?

(Oh, and I love Smothering Tithe, too! Beautiful card!)

Sounds like enough of the bouncing enchantments to me. While it isn't exactly bouncing, I also really like Spirit Loop since the life gain can often mean the difference in living or dying if you get focused on. It's also as hard to get rid of as the 'real' bouncing enchantments.

If your meta isn't filled with people who immediately wrath when Mesa, Spiritdancer, and/or Sram hit the battlefield, you should be fine. Even getting a few cards from any of these is often good enough in my experience, since my gameplan regularly involves holding back cards to prevent over-committing to the board. And I supplement this with recursion effects which are often just as effective as actual card draw.

I haven't felt the need to include wheels so far, so to be honest I'm not sure how their inclusion would affect the deck. In some cases wheels are great and in other cases they give too much advantage to your opponents.

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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-05 6:15 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Segrus wrote:
Well, I guess I know now what you'd take out for Glory of Warfare. I'm not sure where that intense of reaction is coming from, but fair enough.

Basically, it takes everything that's annoying about Rhystic Study, and makes it worse. Tax? 2 instead of 1. It gives you more mana, which I put a bit higher than cards in hand in terms of threat. And the trigger event is not optional - you HAVE to draw at least one card per turn, which means you HAVE to either pay or give the Tithe player more mana. It really makes the game miserable to play, having to constantly be behind 2+ mana or hand my opponent too much mana.

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 Post subject: Re: Anax-Cymede Enchantments
AgePosted: 2019-Jul-05 6:54 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
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Location: Midgard
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Segrus wrote:
Well, I guess I know now what you'd take out for Glory of Warfare. I'm not sure where that intense of reaction is coming from, but fair enough.

Basically, it takes everything that's annoying about Rhystic Study, and makes it worse. Tax? 2 instead of 1. It gives you more mana, which I put a bit higher than cards in hand in terms of threat. And the trigger event is not optional - you HAVE to draw at least one card per turn, which means you HAVE to either pay or give the Tithe player more mana. It really makes the game miserable to play, having to constantly be behind 2+ mana or hand my opponent too much mana.

I understand. I do think placing higher importance on extra mana than extra cards is a matter of opinion, as I would find a White version of Rhystic Study to be more valuable/powerful than Smothering Tithe (definitely in part because Smothering Tithe takes more mana to cast in a color already filled with really great 4-mana cards). I'd agree the tax feels too high, it likely should have been {1} (although, as an aside, I'd have been interested in seeing the tax and activation requirements played around with a bit more).

I'm sorry you find it miserable to see in play.

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