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 Post subject: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - Voltron + Fatties - 17/10/16
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-14 6:10 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Credit goes to Epsilon for inspiration. Goal is to smash out Kalemne as early as possible, build up experience counters and smash more later?

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Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas


Last edited by GoodbyeWorld on 2016-Jul-12 7:45 pm, edited 14 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Iroas, God of Victory - R/W Aggro (it didn't work...)
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-14 6:46 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
OK.

I've officially decided that the reason aggro doesn't work is NOT because the archetype itself is flawed (though it has issues), it's that opponents are irrational and if you attack someone early it's almost like you slept with their mom or something because they hold a grudge against you the rest of the game.

The other issue is no matter what, the early game goes too quick and while one player is irrationally hating you, player 2 and 3 have transitioned to mid-game and are ahead of you on everything.

C'est la vie I guess. I came, I saw, I tried (oh so so many times), but I did not conquer this archetype. I raise my white flag and surrender.

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 Post subject: Re: Iroas, God of Victory - R/W Aggro (it didn't work...)
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-14 11:32 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
I've officially decided that the reason aggro doesn't work is NOT because the archetype itself is flawed (though it has issues), it's that opponents are irrational and if you attack someone early it's almost like you slept with their mom or something because they hold a grudge against you the rest of the game.

heh. You're totally right.

So, I was interested in your choice of general. Was it good to have the general basically be a buff? And to fill the deck with a bunch of mediocre doublestrikers to carry swords? It sure looks like if you get a doublestriker and equip it with something and then the general will help that guy connect. Did it work out that way in practice?

I've done R/W equipment-voltron with Tajic, and I dunno if it was the best build, but it was usually relevant in most games. I did *really* like having an indestructible general to carry a sword. But, my build wasn't particularly thematic; I was just trying to make a R/W deck that could compete in my metagame. So, I generally played a lot of better cards. So, the question I have is: were you intentionally limiting yourself to mediocre cards to play within some kind of thematic constraints? Or do you think the deck could be improved by just adding better cards, without drastically altering the strategy? I suppose, with the caveat that those cards may be considered staples that make the deck less... unique.

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 Post subject: Re: Iroas, God of Victory - R/W Aggro (it didn't work...)
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-15 12:08 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
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I suggest taking a look into either my A&C Enchantments or Antis' THIS IS AKROS! decks. They both have pretty good game, though they go in different directions with Anax and Cymede. I was just at GP Atlanta, and my Anax and Cymede deck topdecked to victory against Polukranos, Karona, Thraximundar, and the new Daxos decks on the back--literally--of Goblinslide, Impact Tremors, Valor in Akros, Spirit Bonds, and Helm of the Gods, with some late game lock-down via Rest in Peace (the Daxos deck was enchantment-based too and was sandbagging some recursion) and Sulfuric Vortex.

My deck is a little more on the casual side though, while Antis' deck is a step above that. It is much more spell-based, and I feel like I've seen it take down multiple opponents in a single game.

People do sometimes have an irrational fear for R/W Aggro in the early game, so give them a reason to be afraid: A&C coming at you turn 4 enchanted with Madcap Skills and Double Cleaved for 16 general damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Iroas, God of Victory - R/W Aggro (it didn't work...)
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-15 5:21 am 
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Location: New Zealand
mmcgeach wrote:
GoodbyeWorld wrote:
I've officially decided that the reason aggro doesn't work is NOT because the archetype itself is flawed (though it has issues), it's that opponents are irrational and if you attack someone early it's almost like you slept with their mom or something because they hold a grudge against you the rest of the game.

heh. You're totally right.

So, I was interested in your choice of general. Was it good to have the general basically be a buff? And to fill the deck with a bunch of mediocre doublestrikers to carry swords? It sure looks like if you get a doublestriker and equip it with something and then the general will help that guy connect. Did it work out that way in practice?

Ya it totally worked, especially with the Kismet type cards on the battlefield. Most opponents couldn't muster enough defenders and with Iroas out, even if they could block, it was never in their favour to do so.

I should have know by experience with Xenagos though that the combination of attacking someone and tapping out your bored just makes you 1 irrational enemy and low hanging fruit for everyone else (compounded by the fact that you are viewed as the aggressor, so everyone feels justified using you as the group pinata afterwards).

Quote:
I've done R/W equipment-voltron with Tajic, and I dunno if it was the best build, but it was usually relevant in most games. I did *really* like having an indestructible general to carry a sword. But, my build wasn't particularly thematic; I was just trying to make a R/W deck that could compete in my metagame. So, I generally played a lot of better cards. So, the question I have is: were you intentionally limiting yourself to mediocre cards to play within some kind of thematic constraints? Or do you think the deck could be improved by just adding better cards, without drastically altering the strategy? I suppose, with the caveat that those cards may be considered staples that make the deck less... unique.

I suppose given the result, mediocre cards is the correct word now haha. Yes it was a intentional decision (or limitation I guess haha).

I think the deck could definitely be improved by adding different cards, but it would look decidedly more mid-range control then it would aggro. That's fine, but I wanted to do something different, because my Xenagos list already fills the mid-range control space really well.

The realization I might have to accept is that all Commander lists are some variation of mid-range control, aggro combo, or combo control, with pure combo being un-fun (especially for me), and pure aggro just not realistically viable.

If I were to re visit these colours, Tajic or Anya would definitely lead any R/W mid-range control list I'd build. In fact, I'm eyeing Anya pretty strongly at the moment but still deciding if the list concept would play out fresh enough for me. The concept being play heavy control early, then dropping Anya as a sticky indestructible finisher. That's just sorta how my Xenagos list plays out (the difference being Xenagos turns almost any creature into a finisher and granting that finisher haste is sorta like getting to constantly re-cast your Commander).

Segrus wrote:
I suggest taking a look into either my A&C Enchantments or Antis' THIS IS AKROS! decks. They both have pretty good game, though they go in different directions with Anax and Cymede. I was just at GP Atlanta, and my Anax and Cymede deck topdecked to victory against Polukranos, Karona, Thraximundar, and the new Daxos decks on the back--literally--of Goblinslide, Impact Tremors, Valor in Akros, Spirit Bonds, and Helm of the Gods, with some late game lock-down via Rest in Peace (the Daxos deck was enchantment-based too and was sandbagging some recursion) and Sulfuric Vortex.

My deck is a little more on the casual side though, while Antis' deck is a step above that. It is much more spell-based, and I feel like I've seen it take down multiple opponents in a single game.

People do sometimes have an irrational fear for R/W Aggro in the early game, so give them a reason to be afraid: A&C coming at you turn 4 enchanted with Madcap Skills and Double Cleaved for 16 general damage.

I've been eyeing both your lists. I've been reluctant to give them a go because I don't know if I could change it up enough to make it my own instead of a copy of either/both of your lists.

The first thing my instincts would want to do as well is to add a bunch more draw spells haha, but I think doing so would cannibalize too much deck space and result in a decidedly less explosive list. I hate being stuck in top deck mode though if I don't successfully "go off" with a list like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - R/W Voltron/Aggro
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-15 8:50 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Changed to a Kalemne (previously Iroas) list in case anyone was wondering...

If this doesn't work, I'll try Anya and if that doesn't work, I'll give up on R/W forever haha.

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 Post subject: Re: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - R/W Voltron/Aggro
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-16 12:56 am 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
But, why no sunforger? sword of feast and famine? quietus spike? chariot of victory?

I always found stuff like puresteel paladin was a little weak. I mean, even if I have 10 equipment, I got maybe 1 card draw off him, and then it's basically not worth using. I mean, it's 2/2 bear that does basically nothing. Much better options would be aven mindcensor or stonecloaker, or, really, any one of a number of small white creatures that have HUGE effects on the board.

Other suggestions: Leonin Abunas, ancient tomb, skullclamp.

IDK. I want this archetype to work, but I think it's pretty hard. I'm genuinely interested to hear about your experiences with the different builds. So keep it coming! :)

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Kothophed (mono black control, ETB abuse)
Teferi, Temporal Archmage (blue pillowfort superfriends)
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 Post subject: Re: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - R/W Voltron/Aggro
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-16 1:53 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I totally disagree on Puresteel Palladin. He was always excellent in my various iterations of "Boros Equipment Aggro Voltron Doublestrike Tribal". He costs TWO mana. You only need to draw a couple of cards before he has paid for himself, and that zero equip things should not be underrated.

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 Post subject: Re: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - R/W Voltron/Aggro
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-16 4:05 am 
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Location: New Zealand
Ya, it's actually the 0 equip that I am more attracted to then I am the draw. If he cantrips once great, twice, fantastic.

No Sunforger because it skews the deck to run more instants, which I don't think I can do properly.

Sword of Feast and Famine could go in for sure. Need to find a cut. Allows you to build up experience counters and keep mana open for Faith's Reward etc.

Quietus Spike I say no because the goal is Commander damage. Equipping this to Kalemne is sorta not needed and equipping it to everyone else is always sorta underwhelming.

Chariot of Victory I'm not sure is better then my current picks. The trample is nice, and so is the haste, but the lack of a power buff hurts.

Somehow Stonehewer Giant got cut, so gotta find room and fix that immediately (I'll cut Archon of Justice for now).

Can't playtest until 2015 is released on MTGO t.t

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 Post subject: Re: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - R/W Voltron/Aggro
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-16 5:50 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I have to say, I think Sunforger is worth another look. I managed to squeeze in a Sunforger package in my list, and my SF package looked VERY similar to the Instants you are already running.

I typically only ran 10 or 11 targets, but stuff like Swords, Boros Charm, etc were well worth it. In fact, I think the only things missing are Wild Ricochet, and Orim's Thunder. I would also give some thought to Comeuppance, as that can be a total blowout at times. I've also tried out Oblation from time to time. It's never terrible, but never felt essential either.

But the real key to making Sunforger work was actually Mistveil Plains. Blown your best SF target already? Recycle it and keep going. I won plenty of games off being able to cast the same Path or Swords over and over, and if they tried to blow up the hammer itself, I'd just boros charm until they ran out of answers.

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 Post subject: Re: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - R/W Voltron/Aggro
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-16 7:03 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
Okay, as soon as I can find a cut for Sunforger I'll give it a try.

I'm hoping this list will be fast enough that Sunforger shenanigans aren't necessary, but agree it could give the list some needed mid and late game.

Makes me want to add Wild Ricochet and Rebuff the Wicked in though.

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 Post subject: Re: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - R/W Voltron/Aggro
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-16 7:17 am 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
thaumaturge wrote:
I have to say, I think Sunforger is worth another look. I managed to squeeze in a Sunforger package in my list, and my SF package looked VERY similar to the Instants you are already running.

I typically only ran 10 or 11 targets, but stuff like Swords, Boros Charm, etc were well worth it.

Yeah! In fact, sunforger is totally worth it even if you only have ~6 instants. Don't include instants that you wouldn't otherwise. That's a trap!

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Kothophed (mono black control, ETB abuse)
Teferi, Temporal Archmage (blue pillowfort superfriends)
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Oloro Upkeep Tribal (enchantment-based control)
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 Post subject: Re: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - R/W Voltron/Aggro
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-16 7:34 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Zealand
I think Rootborn Defenses would be the logical cut then, since I can now tutor for Boros Charm, Ghostway and Faith's Reward.

That's 8 instants, which I guess is enough without making some real hard cuts and testing those >5 drops first.

What do you guys think of Auriok Survivors?

Also keen to hear if people think the whole Gemstone Caverns, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox package is worth it? If so, should I add Mox Opal?

Moxes can be real crappy top decks when you don't have a tonne of draw. I guess that's the risk for the added chance of a turn two Kalemne, turn 3 swing for 6+ Commander damage.

EDIT: I should probably cut two basics for Land Tax and Tithe. Do I then run Scroll Rack?

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 Post subject: Re: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - R/W Voltron/Aggro
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-16 8:18 am 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
Hmm, well, I can answer some of these questions.

I always like land tax + scroll rack in white (or white/red) decks cause there's so few draw options. I've never gone so far as to try tithe, tho. Mox Diamond has a lot of synergy with Land Tax. I'd lean toward using that one. (And also synergy with crucible of worlds, which I also like in this kind of build cause you get a lot of repeated use out of buried ruin and haunted fengraf, and of course strip mine and arid mesa. And you have BOTH weathered wayfarer and expedition map to tutor for good lands. Plus crucible is good with wheel of fortune, which is undoubtedly your best card draw in these colors.) I think you could also run mox opal. Chrome mox, maybe? I dunno. I wouldn't worry about moxes being bad topdecks, cause they're no worse topdecks than lands, and *sort of* directly take their place. But, this kind of card-disadvantage ramp actually works better if you have a lot of card draw, rather than less...

(non-equipment) Card draw suggestions: mind's eye, loreseeker's stone, faithless looting, land tax/scroll rack, wheel of fortune. Speaking of card draw and ramp, I'm pretty sure any deck with Sun Titan wants Commander's Sphere. Cause, awesome.

I think you want some way of getting back dead artifacts. I dunno, but I *think* the best way is Daretti, Scrap Savant. Seems better than Nahiri, and also better than my previous favorite, sanctum gargoyle. I never tried auriok survivors, but, it sure *seems* expensive.

land tax, crucible, (and tithe) all seem really good with Emeria Shepherd, which is probably worth using.

I think you may be going a little crazy on the non-basics. My gut feeling is both emeria, the sky ruin and valakut won't be worth it.

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Kothophed (mono black control, ETB abuse)
Teferi, Temporal Archmage (blue pillowfort superfriends)
Glint-Eye Nephilim (combat tricks, card draw, & creature pump)
Oloro Upkeep Tribal (enchantment-based control)
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 Post subject: Re: Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas - R/W Voltron/Aggro
AgePosted: 2015-Nov-16 8:26 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The only mox I would consider is the opal. You'll already be running a fair amount of artifacts and it has no card disadvantage associated with it. I would replace basics with the three artifact lands to boost metalcraft counts in that case though.

Scroll Rack/Land Tax is a wicked combo when assembled but you'll likely quickly get to the point where opponents have fewer lands than you do which will turn off the combo and then Rack is going to be subpar in a deck without strong draw AND shuffles. I'd probably just stick with Land Tax or maybe even Oath of Lieges.

I would include Mind's Eye and a wheel or two though. The mask and gloves seem a bit win-more as they'll never draw you a card unless you can connect and if you can connect, the game should soon be over. Try Infiltration Lens. Jitte is definitely a strong card in this... Mine is going into Karlov though as it's just as bad there where the "weakest" mode becomes the strongest.

I would include Ogre Battledriver instead of Fervor. There are plenty of haste sources in the deck already but that makes her 10 damage straight off. Throw in a Hero's Blade and you could be swinging for 16 general damage on turn 3 with sol ring. (T1 sol ring blade) T2 battledriver T3 Kalemne with a mana open for Titan's Strength if you want to make it a game over nut draw...


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