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 Post subject: Zur... And Some Wizards! (And Soldiers... Technically...)
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-10 3:22 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-29 11:47 pm
Age: Wyvern
Zur, my first and favorite commander. I thought I'd post the current list here and see what feedback I could get.
For the most part it's just a Zur deck with a few wizard tribal elements. The play environment varies, but it's generally without commander damage; though that doesn't matter often with Phyresis.

Zur the Enchanter

Lands
-Basic
--1 Plains
--3 Island
--1 Swamp
-Artifact
--Ancient Den
--Vault of Whispers
-Dual
--Seachrome Coast
--Darkslick Shores
--Calciform Pools
--Dreadship Reef
--Hallowed Fountain
--Godless Shrine
--Watery Grave
--Azorius Chancery
--Orzhov Basilica
--Dimir Aqueduct
--Glacial Fortress
--Isolated Chapel
--Drowned Catacomb
-Multicolor
--Reflecting Pool
--Command Tower
--Forbidden Orchard
-Utility
--Mistveil Plains
--Tolaria West
--Magosi, the Waterveil - New
--Cavern of Souls
--Starlit Sanctum
--Temple of the False God
--Reliquary Tower
--Vesuva
--Thespian's Stage
-Manlands
--Mutavault
--Inkmoth Nexus
--Forbidding Watchtower
--Celestial Colonnade
--Creeping Tar Pit

Artifacts
-Mana
--Sol Ring
--Azorius Signet
--Orzhov Signet
--Dimir Signet
-Utility
--Sensei's Divining Top
--Isochron Scepter
--Rings of Brighthearth

Instants
-Tutor
--Brainstorm
--Enlightened Tutor
--Lim-Dul's Vault - New
--Mystical Teachings
-Counter
--Memory Lapse
--Remand
--Counterspell
--Overrule - New
--Spell Crumple
--Hinder
--Dissipate
--Faerie Trickery
--Forbid
-Removal
--Path to Exile
--Boomerang
--Go for the Throat
--Oblation
--Mortify
--Murder
--Unmake
-Transmute
--Muddle the Mixture
--Perplex
--Clutch of the Undercity

Sorceries
--Death Wish
--Wrath of God
--Devastation Tide

Enchantments
-Utility
Rhystic Study
Necropotence
-Defensive
Greater Auramancy
Ghostly Prison
Nevermore
Prison Term
Solitary Confinement
-Combat
Spirit Mantle
Steel of the Godhead
Phyresis
Battle Mastery
Empyrial Armor

Creatures
-Nonwizards
--Academy Rector
--Bruna, Light of Alabaster
-Wizards
--Vedalken Æthermage
--Azorius Guildmage
--New Prahv Guildmage
--Augur of Bolas
--Voidmage Prodigy
--Trinket Mage
--Auramancer
--Disciple of Bolas
--Lunar Mystic
--Soratami Savant

Planeswalkers
--Jace Beleren
--Ajani Goldmane
--Gideon, Champion of Justice - New
--Elspeth Tirel
--Liliana Vess

Recent changes (Testing):
Out: Venser, the Sojourner, Stoic Rebuttal, and, Darksteel Citadel
In: Overrule, Lim-Dul's Vault, and Magosi, the Waterveil

Recent changes (General)
Out: Gideon Jura
In; Gideon, Champion of Justice


Last edited by Ancient Chaos on 2013-Feb-13 4:09 pm, edited 11 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-10 8:08 pm 

Joined: 2011-Apr-22 2:00 pm
Age: Drake
OK I'm probably going to break this into a few replies. First, the mana base. You didn't mention a budget, so I'll assume that the original duals (Underground Sea) and so on are probably out of your range for this deck but that Ravnica shocks (Hallowed Fountain)/other things aren't.

First, the double lands (Azorius Chancery et al) are a big risk. I'm not sure how much land destruction is in your playgroup but if there's any at all, you run very serious risks of getting 2 for 1'd, or turning a 3 for 1 into a 4 for 1 (i.e. opponent's Decimate is even more intimidating). Multi-player in some ways makes this way worse because if you're the only one with a double land, and no one has threatening lands (Contested Cliffs, Serra's Sanctum or something) suddenly you're the target. Also keep in mind that even if your playgroup is nice and doesn't play any land-permanent destruction (or only uses it on non-lands) others aren't always as nice. It's great to be able to take your deck anywhere and have it be competitive.

Second, the "early lands" "Scars Lands" whatever we want to call those - in Standard, when you're only dropping 3-7 lands per game, these have a high chance of hitting untapped but in EDH, it's much different. Of course I would replace the refuges before I'd replace these, but they are not great for EDH.

As to what to replace the above with, if you do decide to replace them, I recommend: pain lands, Ravnica shocks, fetches, or even basics. Also definitely Arcane Sanctum (maybe I'm missing it on your list).

OK, that's the manabase.

EDIT: P.S.: Link your general at the top!

_________________
Generals:
Main
Sharuum the Hegemon - here
Uril, the Miststalker - here
Intet, the Dreamer - All Intet's Purposes
Sheoldred, Whispering One - here
Alternates
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave - mostly a 1v1 deck
Zedruu the Greathearted - here
Progenitus - five color superfriends


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-10 8:29 pm 

Joined: 2011-Apr-22 2:00 pm
Age: Drake
OK next post:

Continuing on the manabase front a bit, I'm not seeing what the artifact lands do for you. Also, I'm only seeing one cleric for Starlit Sanctum. Probably not enough.

Speaking of not enough, Isochron Scepter is a really hard card to make work in EDH decks unless you're willing to design around it, in my opinion. You have I believe 8 potential targets for it? And of those 8, how many are you going to really get excited about putting on the scepter? Five? Remand, Memory Lapse, and Counterspell are all great (by the way I LOVE Memory Lapse, great selection!). Muddle the Mixture and Brainstorm are both underwhelming (I'm not really a Brainstorm fan, so that may be biasing me). Honestly IMO if you want Isochron Scepter to work you almost have to develop it as a sub-theme and bring in 2-4 more targets that work well with it and on their own. Potential candidates might be:

Into the Roil - great cause you can cast the kicker or not
Orim's Chant - this might be too dirty for you - if so I understand (expensive!)
Azorius Charm - eh? maybe it would work
Orzhov Charm - same?
Impulse
Any 2 CMC counterspell or kill spell, really

There's tons of options out there. Into the Roil is really good on the scepter though. Alternatively, if your playgroup plays with a lot of tokens Echoing Truth can't be beat. Also on the killspell front I'd consider Rend Flesh as a replacement for Murder. Or as a replacement for something else, if you want both.

Similarly again, do you really have enough good things to copy to justify including Rings of Brighthearth? Dunno about this one. I'm not really seeing much. If you do want to play this, again, I'd try to include more cards that work with it. Magosi, the Waterveil isn't terrible. Copying other free turn effects is better, probably. Or just other powerful effects.

Last, I recommend Swords to Plowshares if you can get your hands on one and Austere Command. Good pieces of white removal. If you can get a copy of Elspeth vs. Tezzeret it comes with 2 Swords, I believe.

Good luck!

_________________
Generals:
Main
Sharuum the Hegemon - here
Uril, the Miststalker - here
Intet, the Dreamer - All Intet's Purposes
Sheoldred, Whispering One - here
Alternates
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave - mostly a 1v1 deck
Zedruu the Greathearted - here
Progenitus - five color superfriends


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-10 9:35 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-29 11:47 pm
Age: Wyvern
erronius wrote:
EDIT: P.S.: Link your general at the top!

I feel like an idiot now. Fixed.
:facepalm:
Also, I somehow left off Vedalken Æthermage, which is kind of important for the wizard portion...

For the mana base, the scars duals are in for now because shocks are being used in standard at the moment; but they seem to be working well, the curve is low enough that it generally doesn't care about having late game lands enter tapped. Arcane Sanctum isn't in just because I don't have one. The artifact lands are there as Trinket Mage targets and Starlit Sanctum is only there as a sac outlet for Academy Rector. The slot has always had a colorless land, so over time I've worked with the rest of the mana base to make sure it doesn't hurt the deck too much, but it's nice to have when I need rector to die... And when I do, if I fetch Necropotence, it lets me draw two more cards.

For Isochron Scepter, Orzhov Charm will be in as soon as I get one. Brainstorm is mostly in for testing. I haven't drawn it yet, so I don't know how well it plays with the deck. I had Into the Roil in for a while, it just didn't work as well as I wanted, so I replaced it with Boomerang. I might try Whirlpool Whelm next, it seems like it might be nice for smoothing out draws. While there are a few times where token swarms come up, it's not often enough to warrant keeping Echoing Truth in the main board, if I need to, I can just Death Wish for it or Sever the Bloodline.

Rend Flesh was actually taken out for Murder.
(Which is my own fault for making a spirit tribal deck, but that's not the point...)

Rings of Brighthearth is, in part, a remnant of Basalt Monolith once being in the deck. But I have more than enough abilities to double with them, the two storage lands, Mistveil Plains, four instances of transmute, Top, Isochron Scepter, Necropotence, both guildmages, Wizardcycling, Soratami Savant, any of the planeswalkers (other than Liliana) and (rarely) Voidmage Prodigy for a total of 20.

I'll look into adding Magosi, and Swords will be in instantly if I ever get one. Austere Command was in for a while, but there was never a scenario when I could ever use it to good effect, I never wanted to do more than kill things with CMC 3 or less (Maybe I should try Consume the Meek...). Overall, it's something I thought would be better left out of the deck and wished for if necessary. For the most part, Death Wish was put in to fill the slot of a generic panic button that lets me get rid of whatever overwhelming threat I might be facing, and at 3cmc, it's much more tutorable than most wraths.


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-11 12:41 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
erronius wrote:
Muddle the Mixture and Brainstorm are both underwhelming (I'm not really a Brainstorm fan, so that may be biasing me).

I had to post just to disagree with this.

1. Muddle is awesome, and is highly useful in an Isochron package. If your games are rife with countermagic, big sorceries, Muddle is very good. Second, it tutors Isochron if you have a spell that you want on it. In other decks, it also tutors for Lightning Greaves.

2. Brainstorm isn't for every deck in EDH, but if you're playing Zur and shuffling every turn, Brainstorm is extremely good. Being able to dump lands you've topdecked when you don't need them, or dig for lands early in the game and ship enchantments you want to tutor for free back in your deck... I'd consider Brainstorm Isochron-worthy out of Zur.

_________________
Check out my old column, Generally Speaking, at CommanderCast.com
http://www.commandercast.com/category/a ... y-speaking

Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-11 1:53 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-22 2:00 pm
Age: Drake
Re: the scepter; I didn't consider the fact that Muddle can get you another Scepter target (my error). Really what I meant was that it was underwhelming if it landed on the scepter itself.

Re: brainstorm... I've just never liked the card. Personally, I would like it better maybe if one of the cards got shuffled in, put on the bottom or something? It's just that you're immediately forced to redraw the cards that you didn't want. I know, I know. It's a great card. I just personally don't like it. And I would maintain in EDH that unless you need the "draw" mechanic of Brainstorm for something like Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, you're better off with Impulse.

To the deck poster re: Brighthearth. I'm going to (hopefully respectfully) press the point. Here's the question you have to ask yourself: How many things am I actually getting excited about copying? I definitely overlooked the planeswalkers - but it still seems to me that you've got a dearth of really great copy targets.

Cut Starlit Sanctum. Unless you have some emotional investment in the card, it just doesn't make sense to have a card that does nothing for you unless you have another specific card in your 100 card singleton deck. And even when you get this two-card combo it... allows you to sacrifice the Rector. If you're looking for sac outlets, there's a gajillion better ones that will let you sacrifice anything. If you specifically want a land version, try Phyrexian Tower, though there are probably better and/or cheaper options out there. For non-land sac outlets, I've always been partial to Spawning Pit (I have a bizarre soft spot for this card), but Phyrexian Altar and Phyrexian Vault are probably more powerful options. Hey, those Phyrexians really knew how to sacrifice stuff, huh?

Speaking of Phyrexians, I really can't recommend Phyrexian Metamorph enough. If you don't have one, and you play EDH, it's a very worthwhile investment to pick up 1-4. This is probably obvious, but Clone is the final word on generals, and Metamorph gives you more flexibility in two great ways. It's a must in every blue EDH deck, IMO. If you can't get one, I would consider Clone - though you do have quite a few (very well-chosen!) counterspells, so maybe this is less of an issue.

_________________
Generals:
Main
Sharuum the Hegemon - here
Uril, the Miststalker - here
Intet, the Dreamer - All Intet's Purposes
Sheoldred, Whispering One - here
Alternates
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave - mostly a 1v1 deck
Zedruu the Greathearted - here
Progenitus - five color superfriends


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-11 2:48 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
erronius wrote:
Re: the scepter; I didn't consider the fact that Muddle can get you another Scepter target (my error). Really what I meant was that it was underwhelming if it landed on the scepter itself.

Re: brainstorm... I've just never liked the card. Personally, I would like it better maybe if one of the cards got shuffled in, put on the bottom or something? It's just that you're immediately forced to redraw the cards that you didn't want. I know, I know. It's a great card. I just personally don't like it. And I would maintain in EDH that unless you need the "draw" mechanic of Brainstorm for something like Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, you're better off with Impulse.
I totally agree that if you're going to draw the cards you put on top, it's pretty underwhelming. But, when Zur attacks, you search your deck for an enchantment, and then you shuffle. So, precombat main, Brainstorm, put two cards on top that you don't want, attack, and they get shuffled away.

Is it worthwhile in EDH? Well, I think so, if you have enough ways to shuffle it off, or abuse what the top of your deck will be (i.e. putting something silly on top for Intet, the Dreamer, or a cards with a Miracle cost...)

_________________
Check out my old column, Generally Speaking, at CommanderCast.com
http://www.commandercast.com/category/a ... y-speaking

Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-11 4:26 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-22 2:00 pm
Age: Drake
Sinis wrote:
Is it worthwhile in EDH? Well, I think so, if you have enough ways to shuffle it off, or abuse what the top of your deck will be (i.e. putting something silly on top for Intet, the Dreamer, or a cards with a Miracle cost...)


Yeah I actually forgot that, I do run Brainstorm in my Intet deck. Don't mind if I do put a Time Stretch on top. (Not that you have to tell anyone). The Intet deck is really a lot of fun. I'll post my decklist when I'm not zoinked out from posting two other full decklists with 3-5 sublists each.

_________________
Generals:
Main
Sharuum the Hegemon - here
Uril, the Miststalker - here
Intet, the Dreamer - All Intet's Purposes
Sheoldred, Whispering One - here
Alternates
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave - mostly a 1v1 deck
Zedruu the Greathearted - here
Progenitus - five color superfriends


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-11 9:47 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-29 11:47 pm
Age: Wyvern
For Brainstorm, I'll make a decision once I actually get around to playing it. I do like that it can turn into complete hand refreshment once Zur is attacking, and it can help get things I want to fetch rather than play out of my hand so I can get them.

Most of the abilities for Rings to double are purely for extra utility. The only things really "exciting" to use it with are Venser and Ajani's ultimates and Elspeth's token ability. But even there, doubling Elspeth and Ajani's + abilities with Necropotence out become huge draws. Generally, the best use is turning anything with transmute into, essentially, a flashed back Increasing Ambition for 5.

Since I don't have any other land-based sacrifice outlets, if I cut Starlit Sanctum I would have to cut something else for a sac outlet.
A quick search tells me the best options I have available if I do that are Mind Slash, Attrition, Viscera Seer, Thoughtpicker Witch, and Barrin, Master Wizard.
I'm not really looking for mass sacrifice, since otherwise I'll likely only be sacrificing in response to wraths or if I have some extras available from Elspeth. For Wrath response, Attrition is out for obvious reasons, and given the mana investment to save things, so is Barrin. Mind Slash is restricted to sorcery speed, so it's out. That leaves Thoughtpicker Witch and Viscera Seer.
Disregarding the fact that I don't know what I'd cut for them, neither of those really seem like great options to me.

Metamorph and Clone seem like they would be hard to fit in, while I can see where they could be useful, most of the time I would rather just have a counter or kill spell. There is, of course, the corner case where I'd like to copy Academy Rector... Phantasmal Image would probably be best for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-11 6:22 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-29 11:47 pm
Age: Wyvern
Currently considering cutting:
Trinket Mage
Starlit Sanctum
Darksteel Citadel
Ancient Den
Vault of Whispers
Venser, the Sojourner
Stoic Rebuttal
Hinder

Currently considering adding/testing:
Sea Gate Oracle
Magosi, the Waterveil
Lim-Dul's Vault
Whirlpool Whelm
Ghost Quarter
Duskmantle, House of Shadow
Shimmering Grotto
Mark of Eviction
Duress
Castigate
Archaeomancer
Grasp of Darkness
Agony Warp
Azorius Charm


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-12 12:34 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
erronius wrote:
Sinis wrote:
Is it worthwhile in EDH? Well, I think so, if you have enough ways to shuffle it off, or abuse what the top of your deck will be (i.e. putting something silly on top for Intet, the Dreamer, or a cards with a Miracle cost...)


Yeah I actually forgot that, I do run Brainstorm in my Intet deck. Don't mind if I do put a Time Stretch on top. (Not that you have to tell anyone). The Intet deck is really a lot of fun. I'll post my decklist when I'm not zoinked out from posting two other full decklists with 3-5 sublists each.

Not to hijack, but yeah, Intet is fun. I played one for a long while, but broke up the mana base so I could build more bicolour decks. It's one of the very few I get nostalgic about.

-----

On Topic:
Trinket Mage is too good! Noooooo! Even if you only get Sol Ring and Sensei's Divining Top, he's worth playing (in fact, he might be worth playing only for Sol Ring). That said, I also like the coloured artifact land package (Vault of Whispers, etc.) with this too, though if people run a lot of Shattering Spree or Vandalblast, I'd consider cutting them. But, trust me on the Top/Ring/Trinket Mage trio; they're especially worth it in Zur (because you can shuffle every turn for Top).

The rest of your cuts... well, I could take them or leave them. Hinder is good stuff, but the rest don't necessarily do anything for you.

As for your additions/testing/considerations, what do you expect Duskmantle to do for you? The rest look okay, but if you're having creature problems, you could try Planar Collapse.

_________________
Check out my old column, Generally Speaking, at CommanderCast.com
http://www.commandercast.com/category/a ... y-speaking

Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-12 3:09 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-29 11:47 pm
Age: Wyvern
Sinis wrote:
Trinket Mage is too good! Noooooo! Even if you only get Sol Ring and Sensei's Divining Top, he's worth playing (in fact, he might be worth playing only for Sol Ring). That said, I also like the coloured artifact land package (Vault of Whispers, etc.) with this too, though if people run a lot of Shattering Spree or Vandalblast, I'd consider cutting them. But, trust me on the Top/Ring/Trinket Mage trio; they're especially worth it in Zur (because you can shuffle every turn for Top).

The rest of your cuts... well, I could take them or leave them. Hinder is good stuff, but the rest don't necessarily do anything for you.

As for your additions/testing/considerations, what do you expect Duskmantle to do for you? The rest look okay, but if you're having creature problems, you could try Planar Collapse.

Artifact destruction isn't much of an issue. Most of those are speculative cuts. Trinket Mage and Hinder are just a bit underwhelming most of the time, but I'll probably give them a bit more time before cutting them and the colored artifact lands.

That still leaves Stoic Rebuttal, Venser, Starlit Sanctum, and Darksteel Citadel.

Duskmantle would be for use against tutors and tops, but if the only land I only cut is Darksteel Citadel, Magosi would definitely be its replacement.
Deprive would probably go in over Stoic Rebuttal just for its scepterability.
For Venser, I'm less certain on what I would replace them with.
And I have no clue what I would use to replace Starlit Sanctum.
Creatures aren't much of a problem with the removal I have now.


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-13 8:24 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-29 11:47 pm
Age: Wyvern
Changes to test:
Out: Venser, the Sojourner, Stoic Rebuttal, and, Darksteel Citadel
In: Overrule, Lim-Dul's Vault, and Magosi, the Waterveil

Edit: Sadly, didn't get to test those changes, but I now have shocks!

Out: Sejiri Refuge, Jwar Isle Refuge, and Boreal Shelf
In: Hallowed Fountain, Godless Shrine, and Watery Grave.

Also, a pure upgrade

Out: Gideon Jura
In: Gideon, Champion of Justice
He was mostly in as a creature, the fact that he could fog was just extra. New Gideon is still a creature, but grows and doubles as a wrath.


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards! (And Soldiers... Technically...)
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-14 12:39 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-29 11:47 pm
Age: Wyvern
Ok, I now have a Blind Obedience to put in... But have no clue what to take out.
Any thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Zur... And Some Wizards! (And Soldiers... Technically...)
AgePosted: 2013-Feb-15 3:27 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-22 2:00 pm
Age: Drake
Phyresis, Battle Mastery, and Empyrial Armor all seem very underwhelming. Particularly Phyresis. If you want to win with general damage then I'd consider keeping them but go bigger on that theme. If you're cutting those three Greater Auramancy starts to become rather blah, and it doesn't seem that great even if you are.

Personally, I'd keep the Auramancy and try to significantly increase the number of Enchantments (preferably non-Auras, or Auras that provide Hexproof, Shroud, or Indestructibility). Specific suggestions include Reconnaissance, which is great with any creature that only cares about attacking, and Unquestioned Authority. Both of those would be great in your deck. (If you really love the Recon effect, there's also Gustcloak Savior and I feel like one more of those out there). Runed Halo is also really great though primarily against general damage, which you say you don't play much against.

Yeah, now that I'm taking another look at your decklist, my major critique/thought is, why not more enchantments? You could go full-on Enchantments if you want to. This would turn Greater Auramancy from an OK card to the All-Star of your deck. On that subject, how are you not playing Oblivion Ring? Anyway, if you decide to go full on enchantments, there's plenty of good ones to choose from but some notable Enchantment "tribals" would be Serra's Sanctum, Enchanted Evening, and Mesa Enchantress (though keep in mind that the Enchantress would not trigger off Zur's ability, since she counts casts).

_________________
Generals:
Main
Sharuum the Hegemon - here
Uril, the Miststalker - here
Intet, the Dreamer - All Intet's Purposes
Sheoldred, Whispering One - here
Alternates
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave - mostly a 1v1 deck
Zedruu the Greathearted - here
Progenitus - five color superfriends


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