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 Post subject: ENDREK - Building a black sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-08 11:04 am 

Joined: 2008-May-01 3:07 am
Age: Dragon
Allright it's time to reveal the full awesomeness that is my Lyzolda ENDREK deck.

I've been playing with the deck for a while now, and I'm totally impressed how it turned out. The Lyzolda deck was quite awesome, but while playing I noticed that (A) the black was doing the heavy lifting anyway, (B) the red was basically only there to deal damage, which meant that I had a couple of cards that were only useful when I was ready to win the game, and (C) as hard as I tried, Lyzolda (the way I envisioned her) was a little underpowered. I decided that I wanted to try it out as a mono black deck to see if I could finish games without the red damage. It was. Even better. On the one side it's more resilient, because there are less situational (red) cards. On the other side it's a lot more explosive because of Endrek's ability.

Short history on the deck
A while ago, I made a thread in the strategy forum (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12168) to begin building this deck.

For those who don't feel like clicking on that link, here's some writing about the what and why of the deck:

Squirrely wrote:
After seeing Sam Black's Zombie Bombardment deck in action I finally decided to see if I could make something like that work in EDH. (For those who didn't see the deck, scroll down a bit on http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/a ... welcome#0)

The basic premisse of the deck is combining self-recurring creatures like Bloodghast and Gravecrawler together with free sac-outlets like Goblin Bombardment and Carrion Feeder and stuff that benefits from creatures dying like Blood Artist, to create a synergistic Wrecking Ball.

What I really like about this kind of deck is that it relies solely on synergy. It's an engine. It's power is the combined parts of the deck, while it lacks any real haymakers. Sure, some of the engine oarts are good, maybe even TOO good (looking at you Goblin Bombardment..), but they only get rolling when combined with other stuff. And even then, most of the advantage it creates is small and steady instead of big and splashy.

The problem with small and steady in EDH is that it might just not be good enough to run with the big boys. All this carefully crafted engine work might just be Undone with the casting of one big, powerful spell (or said spell might create about the same effect..). Not to mention that parts of an engine are just that. Parts. Without other parts, they're worthless.

One of most common solutions to the above problem is to make the engine an infinite combo that wins on the spot, but that's exactly what I want to aVoid. I want synergy, not combo. Which I understand has a bit of overlap and what some might call combo, others call synergy.

So, will it work? Is it too clunky? Underpowered? Can it win without resorting to combo? Is it even pretentious to call this combo stuff synergy? Is it nothing more than a glass cannon?

I don't know, but want to find out. Just to see if what's in my head works out. It doesn't have to be all-powerful, but don't like to sit around all game waiting for that one piece to show up either. Preferably without too many tutors. So, that means redundancy.

For now I've selected black as my main color, because of it's sacrificial nature and self-recurring guys, with red as a second and maybe green as third. I don't really want to Savra as a general, which is nothing more than a personal preference: I don't want to play straight GB as a color combination. I do like GBR though, so that's fine. Other color combinations might work too, I don't know.


List as of 10/02/2015

General
1 Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder

Creatures – 38 - (sorted by manacost)
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Gravecrawler
1 Viscera Seer
1 Blood Artist
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Skirsdag High Priest
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
1 Bloodghast
1 Nether Traitor
1 Withered Wretch
1 Coffin Queen
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Grim Haruspex
1 Nantuko Husk
1 Ophiomancer
1 Dross Harvester
1 Pawn of Ulamog
1 Kuon, Ogre Ascendant
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Balthor the Defiled
1 Smothering Abomination
1 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1 Corpse Conoisseur
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fallen Angel
1 Ogre Slumlord
1 Phyrexian Plaguelord
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Grave Titan
1 Harvester of Souls
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Reaper from the Abyss
1 Butcher of Malakir

Enchantments – 10 - (by manacost)
1 Vampiric Rites
1 Bitterblossom
1 Gate to Phyrexia
1 Attrition
1 Dark Prophecy
1 Death Pit Offering
1 Tomstone Stairwell
1 Grave Pact
1 Black Market
1 Dictate of Erebos

Sorceries – 5 - (by manacost)
1 Victimize
1 Damnation
1 Dread Return
1 Living Death
1 Army of the Damned

Instant – 3 -
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Corpse Dance
1 Wake the Dead

Artifacts – 6 - (by manacost)
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Helm of Possesion

Lands – 38 -
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 High Market
1 Phyrexian Tower
29 Swamp
1 Temple of the False God
1 Unholy Grotto
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath’s Stronghold

The cards are basically divided into one or more categories (some cards have changed, but the explanation still holds):

engine
Carrion Feeder, Disciple of Griselbrand, Phyrexian Ghoul, Nantuko Husk, Dimir House Guard, Fallen Angel, Phyrexian Plaguelord, Gate to Phyrexia, Attrition, Skullclamp (sort of), Altar of Dementia, Spawning Pit, Phyrexian Altar, Helm of Possesion, High Market, Phyrexian Tower

The bread and butter of the deck. Without these, especially the ones that are free to use, the deck falls flat. Phyrexian Ghoul/Nantuko Husk/Carrion Feeder might look underpowered, but the fact that they are (A) creatures to trigger Endrek/stuff when it dies, (B) unlimited free sac outlets, (C) cheap, makes them very important to the deck. Note the variety of effects these sac outlets create: from lifegain to removal to mana.

once
Disciple of Bolas, Fleshbag Marauder, Diabolic Intent, Victimize, Dread Return, Ritual of the Machine, Plunge into Darkness
Same story as with the engine cards, but less important. Disciple of Bolas has very nice synergy with the above mentioned Phyrexian Ghoul and pals.


token producers
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, Pawn of Ulamog, Sengir Autocrat, Ogre Slumlord, Grave Titan, Bitterblossom, Tomstone Stairwell, Army of the Damned
Spearheaded by Endrek, there are a couple of token producers that produce quite a lot of tokens in various ways. Tokens are one of the best ways to go crazy with your unlimited sacrifice outlets and a card that triggers from your creatures dying.

self-recurring creatures - unlimited
Gravecrawler, Reassembling Skeleton, Bloodghast, Nether Traitor, Endless Cockroaches.
I think these speak for themselves. Most of the time you only need 1 of these creatures each game, preferably Gravecrawler or Bloodghast because they are free. However, these creatures are so useful you don’t mind the redundancy and they all have their own strengths and weaknesses. For example: Endless Cockroaches is the worst of the bunch, but makes the most tokens with Endrek and makes infinite mana/triggers with Phyrexian Altar. Also, you want more than one in the deck to be able to bounce back easier after graveyard removal.

self-recurring creatures – once
Corpse Conoisseur, Puppeteer Clique
When Lyzolda was the general, there were some more undying/persisting dudes here, but these were the only 2 left. Both pretty nice though: Corpse Conoisseur is an interesting tutor (the only acceptable type) that can either find one of the creatures in the above category, or a bomb if you have a recursion effect. Puppeteer Clique is one of a few ways for this deck to access effects it doesn’t have in the deck. It’s pretty great to steal someone’s Terastodon for example.

does something when dies
Solemn Simulacrum, Filth, Mindslicer,
No explanation needed for Solemn, I think. Filth is nice with Urborg to push potentially large Carrion Feeders through. Mindslicer is a mean card and probably on it’s way out.


Blood Artist, Dross Harvester, Pawn of Ulamog, Kuon, Ogre Ascendant, Falkenrath Noble, Ogre Slumlord, Harvester of Souls, Reaper from the Abyss, Butcher of Malakir, Dark Prophecy, Grave Pact, Black Market, Skullclamp
The other pillar this deck rests on, finishing the unholy trinity of sac outlet/fodder/benefit. These are some of the cards that usually take a game over when going unanswered. The Grave Pacts essentially Plague Wind the table, Dark Prophecy/Harvester can draw your deck, etc.

2 cards to note in this category are Dark Prophecy and Dross Harvester. I think I can safely say that Dross Harvester is one of the best cards in the deck. It has a very unique and very needed effect. This is mainly because of Dark Prophecy being busted, but very scary as well. When this deck gets its gears going, Dark Prophecy will kill it. Blood Artist/Falkenrath Noble offset this as well, but the added lifegain is what sets Dross Harvester apart because it also makes sure you have a nice life buffer against the attacks that will come your way at this point. (This also is the reason that Disciple of Bolas and Disciple of Griselbrand are in the deck: lifegain can make a difference).


Coffin Queen, Balthor the Defiled, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Phyrexian Reclamation, Victimize, Dread Return, Living Death, Nim Deathmantle, Lifeline, Unholy Grotto, Volrath’s Stronghold
Easy feature for black decks. Especially good in this deck because this deck tends to kill its own men. Especially Balthor, Mikaeus and Living Death are nuts.
Dread Return is often a wild card. I’ve had numerous times where I had all kinds of creatures in play but was facing lethal if I passed the turn unless I found a certain creature (mostly Dross Harvester). If you have an Altar of Dementia in play, you can mill yourself to find the creature and Dread Return to bring it to play. Obviously, if that creature happens to be Balthor, it’s gravy.


Withered Wretch, Shriekmaw, Massacre Wurm, Phyrexian Arena, Damnation, some of the utility lands.
Just adding a bit in area’s where the deck could use some help. Wretch is good when you’re planning on casting Living Death. Shriekmaw is very nice to recur. Massacre Wurm is a nice token sweeper and can actually kill the opponent (with or without the help of a Grave Pact), Damnation is a needed reset button and the lands are just nice to have. Note that I have a couple tutors to find these bullets. Also, with one of the carddraw engines in place, you see a lot of your deck.



After some really good suggestions by other people and some theorizing myself, I decided that my first try would be with Lyzolda at the helm.

I chose her for a couple of reasons:
1. she's cheap,
2. I built a Jund deck before,
3. I don't have a 2 color deck as of yet,
4. 2 colors lets me try out more obscure cards instead of throwing in the 'good' ones in more colors. (and with 'good', I mean for this deck. Not necessarily staples)
5. she draws cards

I grabbed my Cockatrice account and built the following (I tried categorizing as best I could, with stuff that has more applications filed under the primary function):

[spoiler="first list"]General:
Lyzolda, the Blood Witch


Non-general sac-outlets:
1 Skullclamp (not technically a sac-outlet, but functions more or less the same)
1 Phyrexian Plaguelord
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Helm of Possession
1 Attrition
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Carrion Feeder (zombie)
1 Nantuko Husk (zombie)
1 Phyrexian Ghoul (zombie)
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Gate to Phyrexia
I chose a variety of sac-outlets to draw me cards, kill creatures, mill, tutor, make mana, destroy artifacts, make large threats and even an on-theme tutor. The zombie trio is mainly there to combo with Gravecrawler.


Stuff that happens when creatures get Sacrificed:
1 Grave Pact
1 Butcher of Malakir
1 Black Market
1 Stalking Vengeance
1 Vicious Shadows
1 Harvester of Souls
1 Blood Artist
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Hissing Iguanar
1 Deathbringer Thoctar (zombie)
1 Mortician Beetle
1 Rockslide Elemental
1 Khabal Ghoul (zombie)
1 Scavenger Drake
1 Pawn of Ulamog (also a fodder machine)
As with the actual Sacrifice outlets, there is a variety of different triggers: killing creatures, dealing damage to players, making large threats, drawing cards, gaining life, making tokens.


The willing victims:
self-recurring
1 Bloodghast
1 Nether Traitor
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Gravecrawler (zombie)
1 Endless Cockroaches
1 Brood of Cockroaches
1 Krovikan Horror
1 Ashen Ghoul (zombie)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
These serve no other purpose then to be Sacrificed to something. All of them can recur themselves, but some need some (or a lot of) work to do so.
persist/undying
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Furystoke Giant
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (zombie)
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Puppeteer Clique
These recur themselves too (or in the case of Mikaeus, other creatures), but have another effect as well.
tokens
1 Tombstone Stairwell
1 Bitterblossom
1 Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
These play very differently, but can all make a lot of tokens over the course of a game.
other
1 Mindslicer
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Homura, Human Ascendant
1 Anger
And of course, some random dudes that like to be fed to something.


Recursion:
1 Coffin Queen (zombie)
1 Victimize (also a sac-outlet)
1 Dread Return (also a sac-outlet)
1 Living Death
1 Tortured Existence
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
This is the last big category, and pretty awesome at that. Even with all those self-recurring creatures there's still a lot of other men (or zombies, or vampires) that you want to get back. Tortured Existence is one I'm not sure about, but with Squee in the deck I wanted to give it a spin.


Random good stuff:
1 Shriekmaw
1 Damnation
1 Fleshbag Marauder (zombie)
1 Buried Alive
1 Entomb
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Withered Wretch (zombie)
And to fill up the deck, some much-needed removal, some more draw and some more tutors. I'm actually not a big fan of tutors, but in this case I will make an exception because of the fact that they're pretty limited and very much on-theme.


Real estate (38) and a Sol Ring:
1 Sol Ring
Duh.
1 Volrath's Stronghold (also recursion)
1 Unholy Grotto (also recursion)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
1 High Market (also a sac-outlet)
1 Phyrexian Tower (also a sac-outlet)
1 Kher Keep
Some more Sacrificers, some recursion and a bit of utility.
1 Graven Cairns
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blood Crypt
1 Jund Panorama
1 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Tainted Peak
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Rocky Tar Pit
13 Swamp
7 Mountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

I quite like the way the deck looks as a starting point. There's some cards that I'm not entirely sure about, like the more generic utility.
Also, I might have gone overboard on the self-recurring creatures a bit. I mean, I do want one at every point in the game, but more than one might be excessive. I'll probably cut the worser ones of them eventually.
There is a good chance that I lack some removal. I mean, creatures (especially small ones) I can deal with, but artifacts and enchantments (even lands) might pose a problem. I'll see how it plays out and adjust accordingly. If anyone has a good suggestion about what to add (preferably on theme) I'm all ears. Of course I can always add a Strip Mine or something if I want, but for now I want the black mana more, I think.
Finally, I expect trouble against decks with a lot of graveyard removal. But that's probably the way the zombie cookie Crumbles. My redundancy will help here, though.


So far I played 2 games with it on Cockatrice, a 3-way and a 4-way (both in which one of the players disconnected early-ish)

The 4-way had me against Cromat (planeswalker control), Zur (we saw Fatespinner and Windborn Muse, that's it. He's the one that left) and Omnath. Cromat went turn 4 Doubling Season, turn 5 Tamiyo emblem and Threatened to out-control us. Turn 6 he played Final Judgment on us. I reckoned we wouldn't have a chance against that, but my Tombstone Stairwell with 5 creatures in grave brought him to 6. Omnath used his 2 Tomstone zombies to put him to 2 life. I had Bloodghast in my grave and Lyzolda with Squee ready, so I would've been able to kill him barring shenanigans. Then Cromat went Mana Reflection, miracle Time Walk into Gideon Jura (shutting of my attack), Sarkhan Vol (making 10 dragons) and Ajani Vengeant (gaining 3 life, shutting off Lyzolda). With one turn to go, I topdeckVicious Shadows (he had 16 cards in hand from Recurring Insight). After that I mopped up Omnath with a combination of Grave Pact,Flayer of the Hatebound, Harvester of Souls and eventually Phyrexian Ghoul/Gravecrawler for the overkill.

The 3-way was me against Tolsimir (goodstuff aggro) and Gwendlyn Di Corci (funky creatures with abilities). There was a lot of back and forth, but after about 25 minutes Gwendlyn disconnects with Tolsimir having an 8/8 Oversoul of Dusk and some other beaters. Tolsimir's life was in the high twenties and mine about 17 I think. I tried to figure out how I could Remove all of Tolsimir's creatures with Flayer of the Hatebound, Murderous Redcap and Fleshbag Marauder, when it hit me that I could probably kill him. I played Furystoke Giant, tapped my team (deal 8 ), sac Flayer and Redcap to get them in my graveyard. Victimize them back (deal 8 ). Sac Furystoke, Flayer, Redcap toFlashback Dread Return, the persist/undying back into play (deal 9). He was at 2 at that point, which was easy bait for my Lyzolda. HolyWhirlwind of stuff, Batman.


What I noticed in my games was:
1. I had something to do from early on. I have enough small stuff to get going early and not sit there ramping and dropping bombs.
2. My handsize stayed pretty high. With all the card-advantage and recurring stuff I was doing, I never had the need to play out my whole hand, resulting in a big hand a lots of options the whole time.
3. The deck did what I wanted it to do: build an engine. I sacced stuff, I recurred stuff, there where triggers, there was whittling down and there was small steady card-advantage. Awesome.
4. The flipside of the above is that where (and probably would've been in spite of what I hoped) some infinite comboes. I THINK most of them involve Gravecrawler and Phyrexian Altar though, with something like Vicious Shadows or Blood Artist or actually whatever to go infinite. I'm not sure if I'm ok with this. In my first game, I could've killed the Cromat player with an 100/100 Rockslide Elemental the turn he went ultimate on Tamiyo, but I didn't. If the comboes come up too often, I'll probably cut one of the pieces. Probably Phyrexian Altar. For now, though, even though I don't really want to go infinite, I'll keep them in. Both are really good for the deck, just broken with each other.
5. The deck was aggressive but in an unnassuming way. Most of my cards are not immense haymakers and there was always something more annoying or better on the table. And if something got Removed, I could Rebuild because of my card-advantage and redundancy in engine pieces.
6. Carnage Altar is worse than Lyzolda, so I replaced it


Current decklist

General:
Lyzolda, the Blood Witch


Non-general sac-outlets:
1 Skullclamp (not technically a sac-outlet, but functions more or less the same)
1 Phyrexian Plaguelord
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Helm of Possession
1 Attrition
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Carrion Feeder (zombie)
1 Nantuko Husk (zombie)
1 Phyrexian Ghoul (zombie)
1 Fallen Angel
1 Gate to Phyrexia
1 Krovikan Horror (also self-recurring creature)

Stuff that happens when creatures get Sacrificed:
1 Grave Pact
1 Butcher of Malakir
1 Black Market
1 Stalking Vengeance
1 Vicious Shadows
1 Rage Thrower
1 Harvester of Souls
1 Blood Artist
1 Falkenrath Noble
1 Dross Harvester
1 Deathbringer Thoctar (zombie)
1 Pawn of Ulamog (also a fodder machine)


The willing victims:
self-recurring
1 Bloodghast
1 Nether Traitor
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Gravecrawler (zombie)
1 Endless Cockroaches
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

persist/undying
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Furystoke Giant
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed (zombie)
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Puppeteer Clique

tokens
1 Tombstone Stairwell
1 Bitterblossom
1 Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
1 Sengir Autocrat

other
1 Mindslicer
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Homura, Human Ascendant
1 Anger
1 Filth


Recursion:
1 Coffin Queen (zombie)
1 Victimize (also a sac-outlet)
1 Dread Return (also a sac-outlet)
1 Living Death
1 Tortured Existence
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Balthor, the Defiled
1 Golgari Thug



Random good stuff:
1 Shriekmaw
1 Damnation
1 Fleshbag Marauder (zombie)
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Withered Wretch (zombie)
1 Conquering Manticore
1 Corpse Connoisseur (zombie)
1 Carnival of Souls



Real estate (38) and a Sol Ring:
1 Sol Ring
Duh.
1 Volrath's Stronghold (also recursion)
1 Unholy Grotto (also recursion)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 High Market (also a sac-outlet)
1 Phyrexian Tower (also a sac-outlet)
1 Kher Keep
Some more Sacrificers, some recursion and a bit of utility.
1 Graven Cairns
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Rocky Tar Pit
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Dragonskull Summit
11 Swamp
5 Mountain
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Wasteland
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Tainted Peak
1 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
1 Command Tower
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth



So, what do you think? I'd love some Feedback on this. I had lots of fun with the deck and would like to improve it.



cheers, Squirrely

_________________
Generals:
Endrek (my main squeeze)
Yeva, Nature's Herald (hold on, I have a response)
Kami of the Crescent Moon (mass draw, bounce and shenanigans)
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs (you did this to yourself: mono red edition)


Last edited by Squirrely on 2017-Apr-28 5:30 pm, edited 13 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-08 6:42 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-02 8:37 am
Age: Drake
Cauldron Dance is always great if you can make the room. Torrent of Souls can't be used on defense but it's probably even better on offense.

If you're playing with Entomb effects, you might want to consider Corpse Connoisseur. He's more expensive but he's another Zombie and therefore a self-contained Gravecrawler package. As a creature he's more reusable and gives you another guy for all your other sacrifice effects.

It may be too mana intensive to play, but Pyre Zombie has a lot of pros: it's another Zombie, it's self-recurring, it's on-theme as a Lyzolda-clone, and it's multicolored for using with Lyzolda herself.

I would cut Phyrexian Altar if I were you; both it and Ashnod's Altar scream combo. Even if you plan to use it "fairly", it's probably going to draw hate. Infinite combos are fun when you stumble upon something new but everybody already knows what the Altars do.

_________________
My decks


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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-08 11:49 pm 

Joined: 2008-May-01 3:07 am
Age: Dragon
Corpse Connoiseur is amazing, it'll go in for sure! I think I might cut Entomb for it eventually, bacause I don't see myself getting an Entomb anytime soon.

Cauldron Dance is cool, but don't I have to few big creatures? I have no experience with the card, but it's more likely to go in my Kresh deck that's bound to get an overhaul when I raid it for cards for this deck.

Pyre Zombie is probably better than Ashen Ghoul even though he's very expensive to recur. I'll try him out.

You're probably right about Phyrexian Arena. Pity, because I really like what the card does for the deck without going infinite (for example making me chain Reassemling Skeleton cost half the mana), but I found another infinite mana combo with Endrek Sahr and Endless Cockroaches, so yeah.


In other news, I played 2 more games on Cockatrice, a 1v1 versus The Mimeoplasm (goodstuff control), and a 4 way involving Maelstrom Wanderer (goodstuff, 10-minute turn aggro), Talrand (control), and Rune-Tail (lifegain).

The 1v1 game was no very interesting. I got reamed by his big bombs and better utility. It was exactly what I Feared this deck was soft to. I guess that's allright, but maybe a bit more utility might be in order if this happens a lot.

The 4 way was better. Maelstrom Wanderer was beating us hard, with Overwhelming cardadvantage in annoyingly long turns. Talrand got a bit too annoyed and he left. Than, when Wanderer killed Rune-Tail and myself in one attack I congratulated him with his win and politely asked him to concede so we could finish a fun game. Maelstrom got a little Condescending, saying there was no point because we already lost and he was going to sit there telling us he Crushed us if we wanted to pretend we were still alive, which was a little annoying. Luckily he left himself before I had to kick him after which the fun started. Rune-Tail got up to about 200 life but couldn't do anything else because of my Gravepact. It took a while, but facilitated by a Black Market that went all the way up to 24 (at that point I stopped adding counters), I managed to build big Khabal Ghoul, Deathbringer Thoctar and Mortician Beetle and found myself a Stalking Vengeance. This, together with a Coffin Queen stealing his Windbrisk Raptor delivered quite a swingy killing blow. Sure, it only happened because he didn't draw anything relevant for like 5 or 6 turns, but it was still very cool to pull off.


That being said, does anyone know of a card to which I can Sacrifice creatures to destroy non-creature permanents (preferably artifacts)?



EDIT: Someone just suggested Vengeful Dead to me. Which is obviously right on theme for the deck. I don't think it's good enough YET, because I don't run that many zombies. But you know, maybe I should.

_________________
Generals:
Endrek (my main squeeze)
Yeva, Nature's Herald (hold on, I have a response)
Kami of the Crescent Moon (mass draw, bounce and shenanigans)
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs (you did this to yourself: mono red edition)


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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-10 10:01 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-02 8:37 am
Age: Drake
With a card that does as much as Cauldron Dance there's no one way to play it. Even with two small 3cc critters, you're getting 2 enters-the-battlefield triggers, 2 attacks, and a sacrifice victim for a net cost of 1 card. That seems like a deal to me even if you're not "cheating" on mana costs. If you do have something big in your hand (especially something like Flayer of the Hatebound, Puppeteer Clique, or Homura) it's all value. Keep in mind that it requires a target in the grave but the play from hand part is optional.

Quote:
That being said, does anyone know of a card to which I can Sacrifice creatures to destroy non-creature permanents (preferably artifacts)?

The only cards I can think of are Gate to Phyrexia (artifacts) and Shivan Harvest (nonbasics).

You're best off either running critters like Manic Vandal or spells like Rack and Ruin or Into the Core... or you could run complete off-the-wall jank like Xenic Poltergeist!

(OK... I admit I use the Poltergeists to kill artifacts in my monoB Horobi, Death's Wail deck)

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-12 5:57 am 

Joined: 2008-May-01 3:07 am
Age: Dragon
Updated the first post. This deck is amazing, the synergy is crazy.

I had a game today that illustrates perfectly what this deck is about:

I was playing vs Trostani and Child of Alara. The Child of Alara player played a turn 4 New Frontiers for 11, so the game went in overdrive. Important permanents: Dual Nature from Trostani.

My board consisted of Flayer of the Hatebound, Gravecrawler, Gravecrawler token, Nether Traitor, Nether Traitor token, Fallen Angel, Fallen Angel token, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Lyzolda and Goblin Bombardment.
I had 12 black mana untapped.

The Child player put a Martial Coup for a crapton on the stack.

Float 12 black mana. Sac Traitor token and Traitor to Bombardment (2 dmg). Undying returns it as a 3/3 (3 dmg from Flayer, 5 total). Dual Nature makes a token. Sac Traitor again (1 dmg, 6 total). Sac Traitor token (1 dmg, 7 total), pay B to return Nether Traitor as a 2/2 (2 dmg from Flayer, 8 total). Dual Nature makes token. Rinse. Repeat.
Without taking all the persisting damage from Flayer into account every iteration of Nether Traitor sillyness deals 8 damage and costs B. 12*8=96 damage.

Actually, it just occurred to me that if I Sacrificed Flayer first and let it return with Undying, I would've gotten a Flayer token, so the above story would've dealt about 50 more damage.

(for all the math/puzzle lovers, how much damage would I be able to deal if I play it optimally?)


Obviously this game was a bit absurd, but combining all kinds of different (smallish) effects to create a big one is what I was trying to achieve with the deck and it worked.

The deck is not allmighty, some gravehate is really good vs it and non-creature permanents can be a problem. Also, decks playing bomb after bomb can be a hassle because the card quality of those decks can be higher.

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-13 6:23 am 
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Basilisk Collar or Sword of Kaldra could help you control your opponent's fatties. Springjack Pasture is a fine token producer that could replace a swamp. Dimir House Guard is a great swiss army knife for this kind of deck; it's a free sac outlet, a decent wall, and it tutors for some of the best cards in the deck.

And this may be more of a style choice, but when I played Lyzolda, I liked goblins better than zombies. There are a few goblin cards with built-in sac outlets like Weirding Shaman, Siege-gang Commander, and Goblin Warrens that work really well with the death trigger effects. Plus Wort, Boggart Auntie is awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-13 7:35 am 

Joined: 2008-May-01 3:07 am
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Thanks for the suggestions!

Kemev wrote:
Basilisk Collar or Sword of Kaldra could help you control your opponent's fatties. Springjack Pasture is a fine token producer that could replace a swamp. Dimir House Guard is a great swiss army knife for this kind of deck; it's a free sac outlet, a decent wall, and it tutors for some of the best cards in the deck.


@ Collar or sword: might be a good idea. They make Deathbringer Thoctar good too. The problem is that with the way the deck is set up I don't play too many red creatures, so I would have to change that too.

@ Springjack Pasture: The fact that it makes non-black, non-red tokens is why it's not in the deck. Thematically, with Lyzolda it is fun to sacrifrice goats..

@ House Guard: This will go on my shortlist. Free sac-outlets are really nice. Sadly the effect is not that impressive (only regenerating himself). The tutor effect is powerful, but I don't like to run that much tutors in my decks. I even cut Entomb, Buried Alive and Diabolic Intent. Still, the versatility of this is good to keep in mind.

Kemev wrote:
And this may be more of a style choice, but when I played Lyzolda, I liked goblins better than zombies. There are a few goblin cards with built-in sac outlets like Weirding Shaman, Siege-gang Commander, and Goblin Warrens that work really well with the death trigger effects. Plus Wort, Boggart Auntie is awesome.


The goblin version sounds really fun as well, but for this version I chose to focus on Lyzolda as a card-drawing engine. So far it's been working out for me, keeping my hand full of gas while not having to exert too much resources because the creatures recur themselves. Also, I like that this way I'm not too soft to massremoval. But like you said, it's more of a style choice, and frankly both have their pro's and cons. (like Basilisk Collar in a more red Goblin style deck)

Edit: now you got me thinking about goblin tokens, I might go ahead and split my Hazezon deck into Rhys (been wanting to do this for a while) and a mono red token/goblin deck like Krenko. (I love tokens..). One of the major reasons Hazezon is still intact is my foily Warp World. Thanks for the inspiration!

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-13 9:10 am 
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One other thought: Boris Devilboon. He's slow and janky, but the tokens are both red and black.

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-13 11:56 pm 

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Sweet find. I'll try to track one down. It might not be super good, but it's a janky Legends rare, which is a big plus.

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2013-Jan-07 1:49 am 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
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FYI: mana echoes is fantastic in this deck. It generates a ton of colorless mana that then goes to pay lyzolda activation costs. And it's hilarious with stuff like Army of the Damned or Tombstone Stairwell.

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2013-Jan-07 7:20 am 

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There's not a lot of cards it makes heaps of mana with, so I would have to retool the deck for it to be real good.

Thanks for the suggestion though

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2013-Jan-07 8:20 am 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
Squirrely wrote:
There's not a lot of cards it makes heaps of mana with, so I would have to retool the deck for it to be real good.

It's not really necessary... any creature provides at least 1 mana, cause it shares a type with itself. Any token producer is awesome. just casting Sengir Autocrat generates 10 mana, since all the tokens come into play and then mana echoes triggers afterwards, with all 3 tokens each seeing 3 other tokens (3 * 3 = 9 for serfs, + 1 for 1 human, = 10). Endrek Sahr is really nutty.

What's really amazing tho is that most token decks can't really abuse a ton of colorless mana w/o silly stuff like gemstone array or phyrexian altar; but lyzolda provides a perfect outlet. If you have gravecrawler with 1 zombie in play, you can replay the grave crawler for {b}, then generate {2} from mana echoes, then sac him to lyzolda, drawing a card. Repeat for {b} as much as you can. Really, any time you generate 2 mana it's enough, since that's enough for Lyzolda's activation. Even just one additional mana can activate a skull clamp.

You've got a lot of zombies... and other creatures share types w/o really trying:
bloodghast and nether traitor are both spirits;
endrek sahr, lyzolda, sengir autocrat are human;
bloodghast, blood artist, butcher of malakir, falkenrath aristocrat are all vampires.
several warriors and horrors, too.

Anyway. Just sharing my experience with Lyzolda. Mine's sort of similar to yours, but with additional demons to use the blood speaker engine, which sort of synnergizes with most of what goes on here.

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2013-Jan-07 8:45 am 

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Well shit, if you put it like that... ;)

It does seem sweet, especially when the deck starts rolling and needs the mana. I'll go ahead and see how many matching creature types I have and try Echoes.

What would you suggest cutting? (Doesn't need to be only one card, I'm curious to head what you think can be improved)


On a different note, I'm thinking about putting Warp World in here. Since I took the red out of my token deck I'm trying to find a fun place for it. It gives the deck yet another avenue of attack and answer to enchantments at the same time. And since my deck has a lot of permanents in it, it might work out great.. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2013-Jan-07 1:36 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jan-07 1:45 am
Age: Dragon
Well, I haven't tried your build, but just eyeballing it, it looks like you have too many sac outlets and not enough token producers. Is that a fair assessment? If so, I'd drop the weaker sac outlets: nantuko husk and phyrexian ghoul. Also is dross harvester good? Maybe that one. Things I'd add:

Mana Echoes
Grave Titan

I'd want to add more token producers, but I can't think of other black ones.

Also I wonder how you like carnival of souls? I'm tempted to try it. Although mana echoes seems safer. :)

Other things I really like are Reaper from the Abyss and Hell's Caretaker.

In the build I've got I include some resource-constraining cards like death cloud and pox; and keldon firebombers is pretty strong cause it's recurrable. I feel like otherwise most decks will put together really big plays that I can't compete with as the game progresses toward the late-game. Obviously, cards like death cloud and pox are strong cause you can sac your tokens, and other players will have to sac real stuff; also they're both discard outlets which is sometimes necessary. I use a few extra mana rocks to offset the land loss. Which means you might want to spend more attention on other player's mana rocks, where something like rakdos charm or ingot chewer or horde-smelter dragon is good.

Speaking of rakdos charm, I suppose you know living death doesn't combo with flayer of the hatebound? I want it to work so badly I'm using All Hallow's Eve, instead. :P

Oh, warp world? I've got it in a green-red token deck (Thomok), but I've never gotten it to resolve. The casting cost is pretty hard. And the set up requires producing a bunch of tokens before casting it. And then having all those tokens, yet being unsatisfied with your board position. It does seem like a great bomb to cast, tho. I dunno, brings me back to my first thought in this post: do you usually have a lot of tokens in play? Or do you need more tokens?

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 Post subject: Re: Lyzolda - Building a black/red(/x) sacrifice synergy deck
AgePosted: 2013-Jan-07 4:57 pm 

Joined: 2008-May-01 3:07 am
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You're right that I don't have many token producers, but that's not the focus of the deck. The way the deck is set up is to re-use one of the black self-recurring creatures instead of token abuse. Obviously I do have, and need, some good tokenmakers but the feel of the deck should be more... engine-y. I do agree that Grave Titan might be good, I'll think him over.

I'm not sure if I have too many sac outlets: I always want one. My experience is that Lyzolda tends to get removed and even if she's not she costs 2 to use which is more than I can afford sometimes. Husk and Ghoul are necessary zombies and free sac-outlets to boot. The free sac-outlets are really important because the deck can almost always use up all it's mana each turn. They also help me to set up board states in which I can accidentally win with Blood Artist triggers and something like Reassembling Skeleton. I've won in response to Wrath of God before.

Carnival of Souls is allright, I haven't had it in play a lot but added it after an opponent got a lot of mileage out of it with Reassembling Skeleton over the course of a game. It's probably awful, but I'll give it a chance. Also, this is about the only deck I can think of that can play it outside combo and I lurve mystic some janky cards. Mana Echoes is probably better though, but the black mana is sometimes useful.

Dross Harvester is a boss. The other day I was stuck on 3 mana (BB1) and had Carrion Feeder, Gravecrawler an Dross Harvester. It was a 4 player multiplayer (actually the other guys had normal casual deck so we started at 20). Feeder and Crawler made sure the lifeloss from Harvester was undone (I hadn't missed landdrops for 3 turns they would've gained me life), but other players having creatures die in combat gained me life to survive and when a player played Blasphemous Act with both Stuffy Doll and Coalhoaler Swine out to kill me I survived because I gained 20-ish life from creatures dying before the damage triggers. It's a nice cushion without being too obvious.

Reaper I've been wanting to try, if anything that one is going in before Grave Titan. Hell's Caretaker is a card that keeps disappointing me. The effect is great, but the timing restriction is really annoying. I found it tends to get removed before it matters. Gate to Phyrexia is in because I desparately need the effect, but otherwise it wouldn't. Caretaker's effect is great but replaceable. Too bad, the Legends version looks awesome. If you have different experience with it let me know, I might reconsider.

@ resource denial: I don't like to play that way. The deck isn't meant to be competitive and landdestruction tends to rub people the wrong way. Also, this deck really wants it's mana to do what it does, so I'm hesitent to destroy my own.

Yeah, too bad Flayer and Living Death don't combo. Let me know how All Hallows' Eve works out. There's also a 6 mana sorcery whose name escaped me that recurs all creatures. Pay 2 extra to make it instant speed.. From Invasion? Might be worth trying.

Warp World is great when you have enough permanents, but you're outclassed in power. Also an answer to stuff like Moat or Solitary Confinement. Also, it's fun and wacky. Try it!

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Yeva, Nature's Herald (hold on, I have a response)
Kami of the Crescent Moon (mass draw, bounce and shenanigans)
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs (you did this to yourself: mono red edition)


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