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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-29 11:12 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
In my deck these don't mind either:

magus of the arena
living inferno
venomspout brackus
kamahl, pit fighter
pulsemage advocate
nullmage advocate
vine trellis
magus of the disk
hateflayer
godsire

For the inferno it might be suicide though, but possibly it can be spread over multiple turns.

Combining with mayael takes 12 mana, doable I know, but not a small amount by any measure. I think the fact that it basically gives one of your creatures vigilance is more important in many games than what it does for mayael.

Good luck trying kiki-jiki! I am probably going to as well.

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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-29 12:08 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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Also, Kamahl will to be going in. Not sure how I missed him.

Is Pulsemage Advocate any good? I could never decide if it was or not.

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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-29 12:21 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
Yesterday was the first time I had the advocate in play. It was sheer brilliance that game, allowing me to stay friends with one opponent and ganging up on the other. That was a really strange game as described a few posts back, I'm not sure how it will work in games that are a bit less strange. What I expect though is that if you're good at politics and don't put too much juicy stuff in the yard people are actually going to have a sort of love/hate relationship with the advocate, some might go as far as to protect it for you, while others won't rest before they kill it. Ideal situation to play the opponents out against eachother :D.

If I can get all that out of a 3 drop with some defensive capabilities, or even if it attracts more removal than a flagbearer, I am happy. The card will be either helping my deck do what it should or take one for the team, meaning a removal spell less to worry about.

EDIT:

And, as promised, an updated version of the deck, I have decided to try out a bunch of the cards suggested. You might notice Sabertooth Nishoba is out and Akroma, Angel of Wrath is in, but to my mind that was not a direct swap (however, to be honest, I think I first moved out silvos for Akroma, then decided Silvos beats the Nishoba :roll:).

// Lands
1 [LRW] Windbrisk Heights
1 [LRW] Mosswort Bridge
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [SHM] Wooded Bastion
1 [IA] Forest
1 [OD] Plains
1 [AN] Mountain
1 [ALA] Naya Panorama
1 [TE] Reflecting Pool
1 [SHM] Fire-Lit Thicket
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [UL] Treetop Village
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Plateau
1 [SHM] Sapseep Forest
1 [RAV] Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 [SHM] Mistveil Plains
1 [EVE] Springjack Pasture
1 [NE] Kor Haven
1 [UD] Yavimaya Hollow
1 [PS] Rith's Grove
1 [JU] Krosan Verge
1 [UL] Forbidding Watchtower
1 [R] Taiga
1 [TSP] Kher Keep
1 [RAV] Boros Garrison
1 [RAV] Selesnya Sanctuary
1 [GP] Gruul Turf
1 [ALA] Jungle Shrine
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [GP] Stomping Ground
1 [RAV] Sacred Foundry
1 [GP] Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Mountain
1 [UL] Ghitu Encampment
1 [WL] Winding Canyons
1 [SC] Temple of the False God
1 [SOK] Miren, the Moaning Well

// Creatures
1 [ON] Krosan Tusker
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [SOK] Arashi, the Sky Asunder
1 [PLC] Magus of the Arena
1 [NE] Ancient Hydra
1 [TE] Verdant Force
1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
1 [SHM] Twilight Shepherd
1 [MOR] Spitebellows
1 [LRW] Cloudthresher
1 [LRW] Flamekin Harbinger
1 [ON] Venomspout Brackus
1 [SHM] Oversoul of Dusk
1 [LRW] Treefolk Harbinger
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [GP] Living Inferno
1 [PLC] Mire Boa
1 [VI] River Boa
1 [US] Crater Hellion
1 [TSP] Bogardan Hellkite
1 [OD] Kamahl, Pit Fighter
1 [SHM] Windbrisk Raptor
1 [JU] Pulsemage Advocate
1 [JU] Nullmage Advocate
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [PLC] Dust Elemental
1 [ALA] Godsire
1 [LRW] Ashling the Pilgrim
1 [TSP] Magus of the Disk
1 [FUT] Scourge of Kher Ridges
1 [ALA] Spearbreaker Behemoth
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
1 [LRW] Vigor
1 [EVE] Hateflayer
1 [LE] Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 [US] Shivan Hellkite
1 [ON] Silvos, Rogue Elemental
1 [TE] Seeker of Skybreak
1 [EVE] Bloom Tender
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

// Spells
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [LG] Sylvan Library
1 [MI] Worldly Tutor
1 [PT] Sylvan Tutor
1 [TE] Scroll Rack
1 [ALA] Naya Charm
1 [UL] Defense of the Heart
1 [IN] Breath of Darigaaz
1 [SHM] Firespout
1 [R] Wrath of God
1 [IN] Rout
1 [LRW] Austere Command
1 [AQ] Tawnos's Coffin
1 [ON] Starstorm
1 [PS] Eladamri's Call
1 [TE] Mirri's Guile
1 [OD] Kirtar's Wrath
1 [LRW] Rings of Brighthearth

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Mayael the Anima

Not sure what is expected on this forum, I always prefer to keep the start post as it is so the posts afterwards form a logical sequence, but I know quite a few forums would expect someone to update the start post as well, what is the preferred method here?

Any comments / suggestions for this updated deck? I am afraid I will probably not have a chance to actually play EDH before January 11th, but will goldfish the deck a few times before that to see how things work out.

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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 1:14 am 

Joined: 2008-Dec-29 8:30 am
Age: Wyvern
I was wondering if you weren't a bit full of big guys on you hands time to time?
It seems that most of you are playing the "mayael stuff" either with mayael or hard casted.
I have to say that on my own group of EDH players, we're also playing 1vs1 games and with only 30hp we can't afford to wait turn 6 without creatures on table (or littles few ones)
As it seems, according with what you said previousely, you're playing multiplayer games but against lots of blue and/or black deck, anre't Mayael killed/countered too often for the deck to be playable without alternate ways to cast the big creatures?
I, for my part, am currently building a decklist (not played yet unfortunately) with multiple ways to play the creatures that have been drawn.
I was thinking about stuff like Eureka, Quicksilver Amulet, Sneak Attack, Aether Rift and other cards of that kind.

You'll find below the list I am currently building.
(sorry for my english, I'm not really good...)

General:
Mayael, the Anima

Alternates for Mayael:
Elvish Piper
Deathrender
Quicksilver Amulet
Temporal Aperture
Æther Rift
Call of the Wild
Defense of the Heart
Hunting Grounds
Sneak Attack
Eureka

Big guys:
Akroma, Angel of Fury
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Bogardan Hellkite
Borborygmos
Darksteel Colossus
Eternal Dragon
Flameblast Dragon
Godsire
Living Hive
Oversoul of Dusk
Patron of the Orochi
Purity
Razia, Boros Archangel
Scourge of Kher Ridges
Spearbreaker Behemoth
Tornado Elemental
Vigor
Windbrisk Raptor
Woodfall Primus

Planeswalkers:
Garruk Wildspeaker
Sarkhan Vol

Creatures for support:
Birds of Paradise
Bloom Tender
Brion Stoutarm
Druid of the Anima
Drumhunter
Quirion Elves
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Skyshroud Elf
Yavimaya Elder

Artefacts for support:
Lifeline
Lightning Greaves
Scroll Rack
Sensei's Divining Top
Umezawa's Jitte
Whispersilk Cloak

Artefacts for mana:
Boros Signet
Coalition Relic
Coldsteel Heart
Sol Ring
Talisman of Impulse
Talisman of Unity

Enchantments
Aura Shards
Oblivion Ring
Utopia Sprawl

Instants
Condemn
Congregation at Dawn
Evolution Charm
Swords to Plowshares
Worldly Tutor
Enlightened tutor

Rituals:
Harrow
Land Grant
Pyroclasm
Regrowth
Skyshroud Claim

Lands:
Battlefield Forge
Bloodstained Mire
Brushland
Eiganjo Castle
Fire-Lit Thicket
Flooded Strand
Jungle Shrine
Karplusan Forest
Mossfire Valley
Plateau
Rith's Grove
Rugged Prairie
Sacred Fondry
Savannah
Stomping Ground
Sungrass Prairie
Taiga
Temple Garden
Windswept Heath
Wooded Bastion
Wooded Foothills
Forest x5
Mountain x4
Plains x3

I know it's probably missing some mass removals, but I instead tried to speed up the castings of the fatties.
Your opinions?


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 1:43 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
Hi Shebely,

It is true I mainly focus on multiplayer and I think Jeyal does so as well. However, there is a certain density of big guys you are going to need for Mayael to hit regularly. I am playing 25+ big guys because of that, however, I am playing a few that have other uses at a cheaper cost so that I am not helpless till I reach 5-9 mana. Your deck is really missing stuff like that. krosan tusker or eternal dragon might nog add too much on the fatty front, however, the land fetching is more than welcome. Same goes for the evoke abilities of spitebellows and cloudtresher. There is no reason why your deck shouldn't play those to up the fatty count without actually having them stranded in your hand most of the time.

Also, I do play a bunch of smaller creatures to have some defenses in the early turns and play the man-lands / kher keep for the same reason. Also note that many of my spells come out early or punish other decks for having gotten out of the gates too fast. In practice I am generally doing stuff from turn 2-3 onward, the deck can have its all colorless producing lands draws every now and then though. But which deck doesn't have its unlucky draws from time to time.

At first I also played lots of acceleration and was considering alternate ways to get the guys into play, but in the end the games just weren't going that fast and in that case I rather just cast my guys and put those slots to better uses. Considering fatties stranded in hand, sure it happens, but maybe 2-3 at most at a time. I just don't mind having a little backup there in case some global removal spell hits the table.

In all I can understand that when aiming for 1:1 your deck is going to look different and needs to be a bit more streamlined, but I don't think there's not a thing or two to learn from Mayael decks aimed at 1:N.

bye

pi

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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 2:15 am 

Joined: 2008-Dec-29 8:30 am
Age: Wyvern
Sure, sure, I wasn't saying those builds weren't good. :oops:
Especially as yours have been playtested and mine has not.

I tried to stay at 20 fatties at least, to have (normally) one on each Mayael's activation
Unfortunately, considering the group of players I am playing with, dead generals are too many on our tables for me to not try alternates

I'll consider manlands and add some mass removals because I know there's issues with the early game with this general =X

I have to say that adding cycling guys instead of powerfull ones is a bit heartbreaking... :(
Anyway, I guess I'll have to do so ;)

Thx for advices.


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 5:49 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
Sorry, didn't take it that way, but you were commenting, so responded to the comments :). The dutch are known to be a bit too blunt at times, perhaps that was it.

20 fatties seems a bit low, that's only 1 in 5 cards on average. I understand the land cyclers may seem a bit weak, but look at it the other way, they are quite powerfull land fetchers! I mean, give me eternal dragon over sakura tribe elder just about any time and krosan tusker is probably good enough to beat yavimaya elder as well. Don't see them as replacing fatties, but see them as replacing your acceleration, giving you some additional fatties to boot.

Dead generals are not uncommon at my table either (even more common are cards like faith's fetters on them). But, and that is where the multiplayer comes in, Mayael isn't that threatening as she's just a 2/3 with an ability that costs 6 mana and might even miss, often there are better creatures around. In 1:1 you don't have that luxury, but I'd dare say that any spell used to kill a threat that comes back anyway is a waist of their resources. Let them kill Mayael, please, you have better cards in your deck.

If people killing Mayael is really an issue, perhaps you are playing her too soon? I'll admit I forget about her too often, but there are plenty of times where just throwing her out there as soon as possible is not the best play.

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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 6:43 am 

Joined: 2008-Dec-29 8:30 am
Age: Wyvern
I'm already playing Eternal Dragon, and I understand that adding other cycling guys is a good idea, for early game.
I put the elder because he's doing a good blocker during the first turns, like a man land would do as well.

Regarding cycling lands, I have to say that I'm not convinced.
As the big guys are, well, really big in fact i guess that having a cycling land would most of the time only make you play your land taped, as you'll need the mana to cast your spells

You'll always need more land, to use your Rings, use Mayael AND cast smt you just draw, and so on.

I played those lands on other decks (with smaller casting closts and more mana available, in fact) and I always removed them because I didn't like having a land taped during the first turns when I needed one more mana on table to start playing.

I dunno if i'm understandable.
Anyway, I see what you mean about cycling/morph big guys, at least ;)

Regarding the dead Mayael, as we're playing on an aggro background, Mayael is probably more fragile than an enchantment or an artefact, and I can't wait to be able to hardcast, especialy if I remove some mana accelerators to place more fatties.
I'll be dead before that.


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 6:50 am 
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Joined: 2007-Mar-28 12:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Omaha
I guess my group has an advantage in that 1-on-1 games are also played at 40 life?

I'd be remiss to mention that Bloom Tender on 2 and Mayael on 3 gives your first activation on Turn 4.

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Current Deck-building Project(s):

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Building $15-25 "Intro to Commander" Decks for my Local LGS


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 6:56 am 

Joined: 2008-Dec-29 8:30 am
Age: Wyvern
unfortunately, we're starting at 30 on 1vs1 to have the aggro decks playable.
With 40, most controle/combo decks have taken the board on hands before the aggro is able to kill.


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 7:10 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
I don't think anyone mentioned cycling lands?

Also, Shebely, you only play 33 lands, perhaps that is part of the issue? I am playing 39, not sure how many Jeyal has, but also probably more. 1 land for every 2 spells is really low, normally decks play 22-24 lands on 60 and those generally have a better mana curve.

We are actually starting on 20 life in multiplayer now because the games took too long. This has not been an issue so far.

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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 7:41 am 

Joined: 2008-Dec-29 8:30 am
Age: Wyvern
I probably misread something... :oops:

about the 33 lands, I also play 6 mana artefacts, 8 mana creatures and 4 rituals/enchants.
I find it more playable because it fixes the mana base and can be played faster than 1 land per turn
With only lands to have mana, we stay with the problem of waiting turn 5 or 6 (at best, if you put lands ingame each turn) to have a big creature on table

With mana accelerators, you can play faster, like said Jeyal
Quote:
Bloom Tender on 2 and Mayael on 3 gives your first activation on Turn 4.

It's just an example, but playing an accelerator on turn1 and/or 2 seems to me a better way to have my manas than waiting for lands (even if, as i admit previousely, I'll always need more lands)
It's just, I think, faster that way.


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 7:49 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
But those accelerators don't do all that much later in the game. Many of my lands serve multiple purposes. (Well, at least more than 6 do). Also you need the mana to cast those accelerators.

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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 7:59 am 

Joined: 2008-Dec-29 8:30 am
Age: Wyvern
Those accelerators cost max 3 manas, less most of the time.
Casting them isn't that hard. ;)

Regarding the "back up" effect of your lands, I see what you mean.
For my part, I see lands for, most of the time, mana only, as I always need mana for activated abilities and so on, so having a land that do smt else than mana is of course a good thing, I can't deny it and you're right it can be usefull in late game, but if it costs you to delay your casts on the early game because you don't have colored mana or your land arrived taped, I dunno if it's that good.
To see them usefull in late game, you have to still be alive, and unfortunately, it's harder in 1vs1 game than in multi.
That's why I prefere using "untaped" lands, mostly. And sadly, those "untaped" lands haven't that often good powers and colored mana... :(


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AgePosted: 2008-Dec-30 8:16 am 
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Location: Amsterdam, Holland
I think what you are trying to do is getting 1-2 fatties into play and assume they're good enough to go all the way? I think this is a fine aproach for 1:1. Unfortunately in 1:N you just don't have that luxery. I need to make every card count, so I am playing less efficient cards with a more powerfull effect. only reason I am getting away with that is because my opponents need to do the same to stand a chance as well. Anyone playing a deck like yours is going to take out 2, maybe 3 people at most, but the others will be set up too well by that point.

I think we might need to request that the posts regarding your deck are split off from this topic as the decks are really aiming in different directions. Not that I mind continuing the discussion on it, I just think it's a seperate topic (though there might be tech we can borrow from eachother, similarly to what Jeyal and I were doing before).

To get the discussion back on topic again, perhaps you guys have any comments on the updated version of my deck?

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I'm a gabber and I feel OK
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