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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-27 10:35 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
Jeyal, just ordered a brightflame, will try it. Not sure what to take out at the moment. Suggestions?

Tarasco, I face more ground based creatures, so you might be right in your experiences with the breath. My reasoning for playing paleoloth over genesis is the same (that and that it gives me another fatty), but I only got one this week, so haven't had a chance to try it yet.

I don't think I would like the ultimatum very much in my build as it seems more of a win more card. I'd suggest considering wall of reverence from conflux.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-27 2:06 pm 
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Yeah, I think the ultimatum, on top of being win more, just costs too much. Unless I live the dream and I'm able to hide it under a Mosswort Bridge or something, I don't think I'd be able to cast it.

So I dug around on gatherer a little bit, and came up with a list of creatures that are big enough for Mayael that aren't already my the deck. Not all of these are the best, and I know you guys use some of these already, but they are out there for consideration:

Vagrant Plowbeast - Regen is almost as good as indestructible
Verdant Force
Living Hive
Symbiotic Wurm
Thorn Elemental - Better version of trample
Rumbling Slum - Makes games just a little faster
Sabretooth Nishoba - Inferior version of Oversoul
Oakgnarl Warrior - Trample AND vigilance is a good combo
Oversoul of Dusk
Plated Slagwurm - No trample makes wurm sad
Rhox - Regen cost is too high for my liking
Mossbridge Troll - Auto regen is nice
Gurzigost - Depends on how large your graveyard gets, I guess
Deus of Calamity - Prohibitive casting cost
Angel of Retribution
Patron of the Kitsune - Defensive
Silver Seraph
Ashen Firebeast - Poor version of Scourge of Kher Ridges
Borborygmos
Butcher Orgg - Seems interesting
Dragon Mage
Hamletback Goliath - No trample makes old giant sad
Hunted Dragon
Knollspine Dragon - Good for filing the hand
Rorix Bladewing
Rustmouth Ogre
Ryusei
Scourge or Kher Ridges
Stalking Vengeance
Thunder Dragon - Good for getting rid of weenie hordes
Thundermare - The dream: Mayael this guy out just before your turn to tap everyone out, then swing in with fatties

There are more out there, obviously, these are just the ones that seemed interesting to me.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-28 3:47 am 
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My view on these fatties (as I have nothing better to do and like some of the things you suggested a lot):

Vagrant Plowbeast - Regen is almost as good as indestructible

Great card, I'm already playing it.

Verdant Force

In my build I want more than fatties that are just fat. Still the force was one of the last I cut for this reason. It's a great card and I don't think it should be kept out of any more beatdown oriented builds.

Living Hive

It seems nothing more than a bad verdant force. Can still be pretty good though if your list focusses more on combat.

Symbiotic Wurm

Would be nice with recursion, however we don't have much of that available in our colors. As it is I think there are better options like the 2 pervious entries.

Thorn Elemental - Better version of trample

I wouldn't necessary say better, sometimes you want to kill whatever is blocking and deal soem damage to the opponent. I'll just stop mentioning that something might be ok for a more combat oriented build.

Rumbling Slum - Makes games just a little faster

I'd probably consider it because it's also castable more early than most of the fatties. Maybe someone should try a build with all the cheap fatties and see how that runs.

Sabretooth Nishoba - Inferior version of Oversoul

Had it in my build for a while, the protection is rather nice.

Oakgnarl Warrior - Trample AND vigilance is a good combo

Vigilance is the most relevant in my view.

Oversoul of Dusk

Few people can stop him.

Plated Slagwurm - No trample makes wurm sad

Do you see mass removal often?

Rhox - Regen cost is too high for my liking

No comparison to Silvos.

Mossbridge Troll - Auto regen is nice

7 mana is quite a lot for a 5/5, I would be looking to get a bit more out of so much mana.

Gurzigost - Depends on how large your graveyard gets, I guess

i had it in my build for a while. It's nice you can play it out early, but then you probably won't have much of a graveyard to feed on. Late it's probably quite a nice card to have, but in the end I decided I wanted a more dependable creature.

Deus of Calamity - Prohibitive casting cost

Same kind of casting cost as the oversoul actually. I think this guy makes you too much of a target. People don't quite like to loose lands.

Angel of Retribution

Makes me think of angel of salvation, anyone ever tried that?

Patron of the Kitsune - Defensive

OK, that is a card I missed :shock:. I want one of those in mine! I thought the only fatty that could gain me life in a reasonable way was windbrisk raptor, but this should also be pretty good. I notice in my games my life goes down slowly but steady. Often I can pull out a win at 5 or less life, but a comfortable position it's not. If I do loose it's often at the hands of lots of small creatures. This should help battle that pretty well.

Silver Seraph

I have a hard time hitting treshold. What I'd hope this to do is protect my creatures in some way by boosting them, but they acually are already pretty much out of burn range anyway, while most other removal is going to hit them regardless of the seraph.

Ashen Firebeast - Poor version of Scourge of Kher Ridges

I think it's an ok card. The scourge ain't half bad. 8 mana is quite a lot though, I play only a few fatties at that cost and sometimes I need to hardcast them ifIi can't make mayael stick and tapping our for 8 often has quite an influence on my defenses (might be using man-land, kor haven, yavimaya hollow or something else requiring mana to hide behind), while 5-7 mana seems to be less of an issue at these times. If it was 7 mana I'd probably consider playing it.

Borborygmos

Nice with the persist guys. Maybe something I ruled out a little too fast. Still not very good though but can see reasons for running it. like this a lot better than the seraph at least.

Butcher Orgg - Seems interesting

What you'd want thorn elemental to do :). I'm not a fan of the RRR in that cost, but it should be a nice surprise if put into play at end of turn with mayael.

Dragon Mage

I like to plan ahead based on my hand, if I'm getting 7 new card every turn that'll be much harder to do.

Hamletback Goliath - No trample makes old giant sad

one of our group has been playing giants for one of his regular decks. He tries to fling these. In combat they will get blocked pretty much forever, I am yet to see one hit a player.

Hunted Dragon

I played hunted lamashu for a while and handing out tokens is ncie to make friends at the table. In the end I dropped it for something that did more, however it was one of the cards I hated cutting.

Knollspine Dragon - Good for filing the hand

I'll admit having read Jeyal's experiences with this card a few posts back I'm a lot more interested in this card. Don't like how conditional it is though. I often have 7 cards in hand and I don't often deal 7+ to my opponents. Would imagine it being a bad trade more often than not.

Rorix Bladewing

With mayael pumping out guys end of turn haste is a lot less relevant.

Rustmouth Ogre

I think Jeyal used to be playing these as he saw a lot of artifacts. I'm not seeing as many, otherwise I'd consider it.

Ryusei

Tends to take out too much of your own stuff. 4 damage to everything seems to be sweet, while more seems to hurt.

Scourge or Kher Ridges

Great card, I like those creatures that will keep killing my opponent's stuff.

Stalking Vengeance

Haste isn't very relevant, I guess the card would be essential if you're focussing more on taking down your opponents asap.

Thunder Dragon - Good for getting rid of weenie hordes

Might be a nice card to consider. Takes out most generals I face. Could be better than the hammerfist giant I am playing.

Thundermare - The dream: Mayael this guy out just before your turn to tap everyone out, then swing in with fatties

Had these and timbermare in my deck for a while. It's nice that you get 5 damage in, but then you're pretty much open to whatever they untap. Often playing them hurt me more than it hurt my opponents.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-28 8:27 am 
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I'll go ahead and comment on the ones I've tried out.

Knollspine Dragon
Even without the discard and draw ability, is still a 7power flier for seven mana. I've never been sorry to see it, even when it's just a French Vanilla beater.

Scourge of Kher Ridges Awesome.
Ashen Firebeast Got cut for the Scourge.

Ryusei, the Falling Star With so many X/5s in the deck, 4 damage to everything is usually a one-sided wrath. 5 Damage to everything usually wrecks your board, too. On top of that, the opponent can trigger the uber-clasm at any time with a instant-speed removal spell.

Rustmouth Ogre The signet smashing, equipment eating, artifact annihilating powerhouse. Most often, this will get badly chump blocked. It also has the effect of slowing the opponents playing of artifacts, as they'd likely earn the ire of the ogre. I like this one a lot.

Borborygmos Seems small for the mana, and the effect isn't that big, really. I think he was cut for Woodfall Primus in my deck.

Rorix Bladewing Haste isn't very relevant in Mayael builds, but I've had turns where I've Mayael'd something EOT, untapped, played Rorix and took out an unsuspecting player. I like it because it's another 6-power flier. The triple red is a little ugly on turn 6, but on turn 8 or 9 it's not too much of a hassle.

The latest card I've been wanting to try is Archangel. Flying and Vigilance on a body that's significant. (Plus, there's a Portal one at the store.)

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-28 9:54 am 

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Age: Elder Dragon
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Jeyal wrote:
The latest card I've been wanting to try is Archangel. Flying and Vigilance on a body that's significant. (Plus, there's a Portal one at the store.)


I've realized what you guys have been saying about vigilace as being so important to the mayael deck. (I added oakgnarl warrior to my build) Archangel doesn't seem worth it to me. I'd rather play the warrior wi trample and a bigger butt.

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2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
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6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-28 10:57 am 
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I think what might be making vigilance especially nice is that you will be building a board position that's obviously strong (as opposed to a control deck with a full grip, which is a lot less obvious, but probably at least as threatening). However if you use that position you will be left open. At that point the opponents get a chance to hit you. With vigilance they don't get that.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-01 12:37 am 
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So I made a couple changes, and got two games in. Bold is added cards, parenthesis are the removed cards.

General
Mayael

Big Critters (34)
Panglacial Wurm
Silvos
Living Inferno
Godsire
Verdant Force
Cloudthresher
Woodfall Primus
Vigor
Spitebellows
Rith
Razia
Vagrant Plowbeasts
Penumbra Wurm
Meglonoth
Krosan Tusker
Kamahl, Pit Fighter
Bloodfire Colossus
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Akroma, Angel of Fury
Yosei
Wolly Thoctar
Windbrisk Raptor
Vemonsprout Brackus
Twilight Shepard
Spearbreaker Behemoth
Shivan Hellkite
Magus of the Arena
Hateflayer
Flameblast Dragon
Eternal Dragon
Bull Ceradon
Bogardan Hellkite
Blazing Archon
Arashi

Other Critters (4)
Indrik Stomphowler (Wickerbough Elder)
Genesis
(Kiki-Jiki)
Bloom Tender
Ashling the Pilgrim

Control (11)
Wrath of God
Faith's Fetters
Starstorm
Swords to Plowshares
Austere Command
Brightflame
Breath of Darigaaz
Firespout
Tawnos' Coffin (Incendiary Command)
Rout
Savage Twister

Other Stuff (11)
Greater Good
Sylvan Library
Mirari's Wake (Miraculous Recovery)
Naya Charm
(Radiate)
Wild Ricochet
Harmonize
Scroll Rack
Rings of Brighthearth
Mana Reflection (Obelisk of Naya)
Primal Command
Waves of Aggression

Land (39)
Highland Weald
Miren
Kher Keep
Battlefield Forge
Boros Garrison
Brushland
Forgotten Cave
Fungal Reaches
Grasslands
Gruul Turf
Jungle Shrine
Karplusan Forest
Krosan Verge
Mirrodin's core
Mosswort Bridge
Naya Panorama
New Benalia
Saltcrusted Steppe
Secluded Steppe
Selesnya Sanctuary
Spinerock Knoll
Sunhome, fortress of legion
Temple of the false god
Terramorphic Expanse
Tranquil Thicket
Vivid grove
Vivid crag
Vivid meadow
Windswept Heath
Savannah
Temple Garden
Stomping Ground
Sacred Foundry

Basically the changes didn't come up in either game, and I got rocked by control in both games.

Game 1: Other generals were Wort, Boggart Auntie, Dralnu, and Sol'Kanar. I had mana issues early, and Wort beat me up good. By the time I stabilized, Sol'Kanar and Dralnu were going at it, with Sol'Kanar coming out on top. By this time Wort had no cards in hand and was a non-threat. With Dralnu gone, Sol'Kanar focused on me. I managed a pretty good offense, and got him down to 3, while I was at 18. I only needed one more turn, but he had assembled the Urborg/Cabal Coffers combo, and ended up hitting me with a twincasted Cruel Ultimatum, knocking my army down to a sole Shivan Hellkite. He then attacked me for the win.

Game 2: Against Horde of Notions, Merieke re Berit (sp?) and Teneb. I didn't get a single activation of Mayael this game, as she never lasted a full turn. All three opponents were playing control, with Merieke playing the bad guy early on. I ended up knocking Merieke around pretty good with help from Teneb. Teneb began recurring a Puppeter Clique, grabbing my Yosei from my grave, and sac'ing Yosei with Diamond Valley to keep Merieke from untapping while gaining life. After Merieke was knocked out, I was next to get hit with the combo, as Horde of Notions wasn't very threatening at all.

As for a previous question, yes, there is a ton of mass removal in the MTGO environment. Also, I've appreciated the comments on the list of fatties I threw out there. It's making me consider either a more vigilance oriented build, or the possibility of focusing on undercosted fatties. Obviously my deck still has room for improvement. I realized I had no graveyard hate, and figure I need to throw in at least something. In the second game I played Mayael 4 times without getting to untap with her. That was a bummer.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-01 7:11 am 
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Made a few changes based on what i see others do:

// Lands
1 [LRW] Windbrisk Heights
1 [LRW] Mosswort Bridge
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [SHM] Wooded Bastion
1 [IA] Forest (1)
1 [OD] Plains (3)
1 [AN] Mountain
1 [ALA] Naya Panorama
1 [TE] Reflecting Pool
1 [SHM] Fire-Lit Thicket
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [UL] Treetop Village
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Plateau
1 [NE] Kor Haven
1 [UD] Yavimaya Hollow
1 [PS] Rith's Grove
1 [JU] Krosan Verge
1 [UL] Forbidding Watchtower
1 [R] Taiga
1 [TSP] Kher Keep
1 [RAV] Boros Garrison
1 [RAV] Selesnya Sanctuary
1 [GP] Gruul Turf
1 [ALA] Jungle Shrine
1 [RAV] Temple Garden
1 [GP] Stomping Ground
1 [RAV] Sacred Foundry
1 [UL] Ghitu Encampment
1 [WL] Winding Canyons
1 [SC] Temple of the False God
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [CFX] Rupture Spire
1 [CFX] Exotic Orchard
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [DS] Mirrodin's Core

// Creatures
1 [ON] Krosan Tusker
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [SOK] Arashi, the Sky Asunder
1 [PLC] Magus of the Arena
1 [NE] Ancient Hydra
1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
1 [SHM] Twilight Shepherd
1 [LRW] Cloudthresher
1 [ON] Venomspout Brackus
1 [LRW] Treefolk Harbinger
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [GP] Living Inferno
1 [US] Crater Hellion
1 [OD] Kamahl, Pit Fighter
1 [SHM] Windbrisk Raptor
1 [JU] Pulsemage Advocate
1 [JU] Nullmage Advocate
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [ALA] Godsire
1 [LRW] Ashling the Pilgrim
1 [TSP] Magus of the Disk
1 [FUT] Scourge of Kher Ridges
1 [ALA] Spearbreaker Behemoth
1 [RAV] Blazing Archon
1 [LRW] Vigor
1 [EVE] Hateflayer
1 [US] Shivan Hellkite
1 [ALA] Flameblast Dragon
1 [CS] Martyr of Ashes
1 [CFX] Paleoloth
1 [CFX] Vagrant Plowbeasts
1 [CHK] Yosei, the Morning Star
1 [CHK] Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
1 [UL] Mother of Runes
1 [TE] Nurturing Licid
1 [CFX] Wall of Reverence
1 [CFX] Meglonoth
1 [SH] Calming Licid
1 [ST] Thunder Dragon Replaces hammerfist giant as soon as I get it in.
1 [BOK] Patron of the Kitsune Replaces weathered wayfarer.
1 [SHM] Knollspine Dragon Replaces worldly tutor.

// Spells
1 [ALA] Naya Charm
1 [UL] Defense of the Heart
1 [IN] Breath of Darigaaz
1 [SHM] Firespout
1 [R] Wrath of God
1 [IN] Rout
1 [LRW] Austere Command
1 [AQ] Tawnos's Coffin
1 [ON] Starstorm
1 [LRW] Rings of Brighthearth
1 [MI] Savage Twister
1 [LRW] Primal Command
1 [ON] Akroma's Vengeance
1 [BE] Earthquake
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [LG] Sylvan Library
1 [TE] Scroll Rack
1 [TE] Mirri's Guile
1 [RAV] Brightflame Replaces eladamri's call.

// Sideboard

SB: 1 [ALA] Mayael the Anima

I hated removing my search, but needed to make room somwhere and these seemed to be the weakest cards. Thinking about what I would often search for it would be to handle artifacts and/or enchantments. I have therefore left in magus of the disk and treefolk harbringer for now. If I come to realize I prefer the tutors those are probably the cards moving out for them.

I'm giving brightflame and knollspine dragon a try, let's see how they perform for me. I like how the changes bring my fatty count up to 28 and give me some more life gain, which feels needed at times.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-10 3:02 pm 
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pi wrote:
For consideration: a rebel engine could be nice on defense, thinning the deck, bringing back their fallen mates. None of them is really spectecular, however together they can be a pretty nasty force. Also when they die to a wrath they can be started up again. Maybe doing them right would take up too much space but it sure seems interesting.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this? It still seems like a very nice direction for the deck to go for its early defense. It filters the deck, letting me get away with fewer fatties, aka, less dead cards in the early game, it improves top and co, provides infinite blockers (well, if they happen to make it to your next untap and you can spare the mana), etc. on the other hand, each on is own is probably worse than just about anything I play for early defense right now.

Anyway, your thoughts?

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-10 3:59 pm 
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I like the idea, but I think it depletes the "critical mass" of fat that my deck seems to thrive off of.

I've never really had a problem with early creature rushes, to be quite honest.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-11 11:54 am 
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Maybe I'm overrating the need to stop early creatures. I've started thinking and most often they are not much of an issue. There are times however when I need chump blockers, or need to look like I have some defense or I'll get hit. I think there are 2 main issues for this deck, one being flyers and other hard to block creatures, the other being lots of small creatures, often tokens. I am playing a few more flyers now and I think in general the flyers are less of an issue because I'll have some fatties to retaliate with. The tokens however are an issue that so far I have only been able to solve by playing wraths, windbrisk raptor and recently the patron. This sollution is unfortunately quite slow and sometimes those decks come out of nowhere.

Thinking about it the rebels will probably only help with the first issue (assuming I have a flying rebel to look for, which shouldn't be too much of an issue). Some of the things I play right now, ashling and the martyr, stand a chance against those creature rushes, though I'll admit it's a stretch for ashling. Thinking more the main issue probably isn't exactly the early rushes but the speed with which some decks recover from a wrath, forcing me to wrath again much sooner than I would like.

It would seem that the sollution to both issues would be to find more wrath like effects. As tokens quite often are generated by non-creature sources I might even need to be looking for akroma's vengeance like cards. Scourglass, oblivion stone and nevinyrral's disk spring to mind. The issue with playing these is that I do have some artifacts and enchantments I would really like to be able to keep around.

I'm not sure which direction to head in at this point. Do btw know a 3rd issue: mass land destruction, especially only my lands, however, I don't know how this deck's going to be able to handle that without changing completely.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-11 12:09 pm 
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O-stone is nice, because it can keep your stuff around if you have the time.

Maybe it's just my playgroup, but I can usually rely on other people's wraths hitting the huge token swarms. Or Verdant Force to generate a bit of 1-1 resistance.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-11 12:14 pm 
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It's starting to 'improve' but it used to be that I owned like twice as many wraths (and its brethren) as all the other players in the group together. We now get those kind of cards more often, but I guess it might not be up as high as in your group. Might be the reason that I need to play much more of those wrath effects, while I guess you can rely more on your opponents using them. Interesting :).

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-11 1:01 pm 
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My playgroup understands the necessity of mass removal, even the cheap ones. So, the young kids with no jobs that can't afford Damnations and Mutilates have Barters in Blood and Hideous Laughters instead. It's not always the premier cards- -Routs and Austere COmmands for those without Wraths- -Wash Outs and Evacuations- I've even seen Hail Storm played.

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Izoni, Thousand Eyed (Elf Tribal-ish)
Building $15-25 "Intro to Commander" Decks for my Local LGS


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-11 2:56 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Feb-11 1:24 pm
Age: Dragon
If tokens are an issue, why not use pyroclasm type effects? There are plenty out there in red that would allow you to keep your creatures out, including Mayael, while wiping out the token swarm. Even Pyrohemia could work to keep them in check if you have something large out. I realize they are limited, but may be what you are looking for.


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