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 Post subject: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Nov-10 2:04 pm 

Joined: 2011-Apr-15 1:40 pm
Age: Wyvern
-as of december 11-

here's the deck i've been using to take down modo's commander meta since they banned erayo.

plan A is to go for a quick hermit druid combo-kill. an opening hand that consists of 3 untapped lands (that generate 1BG) and a 1-mana (non-enlightened) tutor is enough to kill a (table of) goldfish on turn 3. for those who don't know, here's how it works:
play hermit on turn 2.
on turn 3 (main phase), activate the druid, flipping your deck into your graveyard.
play an untapped land, getting back bloodghast.
unearth rotting rats. discard any combo piece stuck in your hand.
flashback dread return targeting reveillark.
flashback cabal therapy sacing lark (optionally targeting yourself to get rid of more combo pieces).
get back karmic guide and dimir house guard.
karmic guide returns reveillark.
sac karmic guide and reveillark repeatedly to get back any <=2 power creature as often as you want, usually 1x krovikan horror and 120x wall of roots.
online i will just get the grand abolisher to secure the win and then scoop, leaving the game untouched and ready to continue.
swords to plowshares on house guard or a counterspell on dread return might stop you. your failsafe is krosan reclamation into loaming shaman. note that most players will thankfully not slowplay the plowshares but instead exile the hermit on sight. online they will often even tap our for F8 purposes. you are further aided by the fact that more players begin to realize that spotremoval (and countering offensively) is just way worse in multiplayer than it is in duels, due to the free-rider problem. watch out for obvious counterspells though.
if it looks like your druid might likely get killed, it could be advisable to tutor for survival of the fittest instead, possibly playing it with green mana up to be able to search for eternal witness right away in case they disenchant. krovikan horror and wall of roots help you dump the rest of the combo (and evoke reveillark) pretty quickly.

plan B is a land-only (i.e. no mana artifacts) ramp strategy. you will revert to this plan if you couldn't untap with a hermit (or survival) in play on turns 3-4 or got foiled otherwise (e.g. by gaddock teeg). the goal is to use your exploration effects and primeval titan to ramp up to 10 lands in play, at which point a death cloud for 7 would be in order, getting all your opponents' hands, hopefully most of their mana, and leaving you with 3 lands for karador, ghost chieftain (and ideally a dark depths + vampire hexmage next turn).
since death cloud doesn't get artifacts, you probably need to deploy the null rod/stony silence/pernicious deed artifact hate suite somewhere along the way.

sometimes they'll have many more lands in play than you do. in that case, you should probably try for elesh norn, grand cenobite + kamahl, fist of krosa, e.g. off academy rector into defense of the heart. (edit: go for rune-scarred demon/living plane instead of kamahl!)
elesh norn can also be reanimated cheaply with loyal retainers, it often makes living plane an automatic win (always look out for opportunities to get 'em with that one) and is mass removal for when one of your opponents has more than 7 creatures in play.
though in general, your MVP would just be primeval titan. there's a few nice 2-land combinations you can get here (urborg, tomb of yawgmoth/cabal coffers being the most important; also gaea's cradle/khalni garden, glacial chasm/flagstones of trokair, golgari rot farm/tranquil thicket). with something like wall of roots into natural order for a turn 3 titan, you can generate 11-12 mana on turn 4.

if they play a blood moon, you can safely fold. a possible out could be karn liberated, but in most cases he'd just clog up your hand, so i chose to cut him from this list.


Karador, Ghost Chieftain

City of Brass
Tarnished Citadel
Command Tower
Forbidden Orchard
Exotic Orchard
Reflecting Pool
Savannah
Bayou
Scrubland
Temple Garden
Overgrown Tomb
Godless Shrine
Windswept Heath
Flooded Strand
Bloodstained Mire
Wooded Foothills
Polluted Delta
Verdant Catacombs
Marsh Flats
Misty Rainforest
Arid Mesa
Brushland
Llanowar Wastes
Caves of Koilos
Razorverge Thicket
Horizon Canopy
Sunpetal Grove
Woodland Cemetery
Twilight Mire
Golgari Rot Farm
Cabal Coffers
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Cabal Pit
Phyrexian Tower
Gaea's Cradle
Khalni Garden
Tranquil Thicket
Flagstones of Trokair
Krosan Verge
Ancient Tomb
High Market
Strip Mine
Bazaar of Baghdad
Diamond Valley
Glacial Chasm
Dark Depths
Dryad Arbor
(47 lands)

Apprentice Necromancer
Rotting Rats
Fauna Shaman
Hermit Druid
Wall of Roots
Bloodghast
Vampire Hexmage
Qasali Pridemage
Grand Abolisher
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Elvish Spirit Guide
Loaming Shaman
Loyal Retainers
Eternal Witness
Knight of the Reliquary
Dimir House Guard
Krovikan Horror
Oracle of Mul Daya
Academy Rector
Reveillark
Karmic Guide
Duplicant
Primeval Titan
Rune-Scarred Demon
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Null Rod
Crucible of Worlds
Horn of Greed

Exploration
Survival of the Fittest
Sylvan Library
Stony Silence
Pernicious Deed
Necropotence
Defense of the Heart
Living Plane
Pattern of Rebirth

Cabal Therapy
Imperial Seal
Sylvan Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Life from the Loam
Dread Return
Natural Order
Green Sun's Zenith
Death Cloud

Vampiric Tutor
Worldly Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Krosan Reclamation
Eladamri's Call
Chord of Calling


edit:
+1 High Market
+1 Apprentice Necromancer
+1 Rune-Scarred Demon
+1 Pattern of Rebirth

-1 Isolated Chapel
-1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
-1 Myojin of Night's Reach
-1 Explore


Last edited by derbestemann on 2011-Dec-11 1:02 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Nov-14 1:44 pm 

Joined: 2011-May-17 8:29 pm
Age: Drake
Man is this ever a deck after my own heart. Tell you what, though. I didn't see if you play this in a multiplayer setting that isn't MTGO Do this a couple times and people are gonna bring the hate as quickly as possible.

I like the lands game fallback, but if I could make a few recommendations, I'd say that you should run even another way to take care of business, if it seems you're getting too much hate. My biggest recommendation is Worm Harvest, for sure. If you loop Reveillark a few times and want to surprise your opponents quickly, without using bad creatures, hit them with Bitter Ordeal. Even if it doesn't immediately remove all their libraries from the game, you can take out the combos of other players, if they exist in your meta.

I love the inclusion of Death Cloud, by the way. That's been an all-star in a Damia combo deck I've been playing. Especially because artifacts don't get hit.

If you find yourself low on mana, I'd also include Squandered Resources. It's just for added value.

Sorry if none of these suggestions help, but the deck looks brutal. I might give this a shot in my playgroup. They're pretty heavily invested in competitive EDH.


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Nov-15 1:31 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-15 1:40 pm
Age: Wyvern
thx for your input!

hate is always a problem, but you're protected by some factors. first of all, playing hate offensively is usually not a good strategy in multiplayer. you ideally want other players to durdle around with hating each other, while you free-ride on that and keep advancing your own board. no one can beat an opponent that brings a duel deck that's filled with nothing but spotremoval and is committed to taking you out of the game. but that player will beat no one but you, so he would be essentially what they call a "landmine" in the poker world. you don't wanna be that guy, not if winning the game holds any value to you. these table-sheriffs do exist, but they are usually the worst players at the table.
furthermore, plan A is very fast and plan B is very resilient. in the early game, players will often tap out. later, they won't often get you with mass-ld, the biggest threat to your land plan. there's some questionable notion among the community that playing armageddon is unethical for some reason. these people need to be punished with turbo-lands.
that is the most important reason i'm going for a land-based ramp strategy instead of an artifact-based one. it's a little bit less explosive, and locking them out with an early smokestack is always nice, but you get great resilience in return. i have used artifact-based hermit/cloud decks in the past as well, there's a sweet BG-glissa (ooze-combo) list i posted somewhere in this forum.

worm harvest was in this list at one point. your back-up plan then consisted of dread/vigor/serra avatar + dredging life from the loam and hitting them with worm harvest. that however uses up 2 more slots and is not even strictly a better plan due to the prolonged exposure to possible mass graveyard hate. the last 100 games or so the backup plan did not come up once, so i like going with as few cards as possible. you might even take it out altogether, but you'd look rather silly if they DID stop you mid-combo and you just died ;)
as for additional win-conditions, i like avenger of zendikar more than worm harvest, just for the fact that it's a creature and easier to tutor up. it also enables the use of aura shards as an additional artifact hate card. i found however that kamahl usually hits them faster and harder in the situations you need to beat down anyway (gaea's cradle is a good card). but the short of it is that you simply have no room left in this deck for anything that looks like it is just added value. there's a great many cards that potentially fit that bill, and i've probably tried most of them by now. but the first card you'd cut for them is probably explore, and that seems to be the poster child for added value in itself.
squandered resources would be of value in an artifact-based deck. in a land based deck it's just the opposite of what you wanna do.
and as for the bitter ordeal, when you loop, the game is probably over, and i don't see that part needing much improvement ;)


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Nov-16 9:08 pm 

Joined: 2010-Oct-10 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Two things:

1) I have played you several times online, and I can't think of a player I hate playing against more. Nothing personal, but I've seen you play your old Teeg deck (Loyal Retainers/Emrakul with 'Lark backup) and the Hermit/Ooze deck with Xira Arien. Most recently I saw you win with this deck using Living Plane/Elesh, which I couldn't stand. But that's just me whinging because I play casual, which you clearly don't.

2) You've clearly thought out every card carefully and tested heavily. I find your reasonings sound and interesting to read. For a competitive player you haven't just gone for GBW goodstuff, but have done a resilient combo-based deck with a consistent backup plan. Too many combo decks scoop if someone uses Jester's Cap or equivalent.

In summary: great deck. If there was reliable way to get competitive play online then, from what I've seen at least, you build the most reliable decks out there. Nice work, and please don't be offended if I avoid you like the plague :P


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Nov-17 12:37 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-15 1:40 pm
Age: Wyvern
haha, thanks. your feedback means a lot!

commander really is all about fun, and buildings decks like these is just my idea of having a good time. everyone is entitled to their own vision of the game, of course :)

so, i see you at the tables. or not ;)


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Nov-19 3:47 pm 

Joined: 2011-Nov-17 9:15 am
Age: Hatchling
Trying this deck in real life and am loving it, good job!

Now I see this is for modo. Any cards that you would include if it was a real life deck? Also how have the 47 lands worked for you? It seems like 42-43 may be better?


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Nov-21 8:50 am 

Joined: 2011-Nov-17 9:15 am
Age: Hatchling
How has 47 land worked for you? When I've tested it it seemed like it may be too much.

Do you play this deck in paper magic as well? Any changes you would suggest to someone making the paper version?

Any thoughts on adding 2-3 basic land? Obviously you hurt the combo consistancy but it could deflect some hate and allow you to not get just blown out by Blood Moon?

Love the deck though, very powerful


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Nov-30 11:41 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-15 1:40 pm
Age: Wyvern
i'd have to advise against going lower than 47 lands (i wouldn't even mind playing 2 more, but at this point it's pretty hard to cut any spells since they're all so essential).

not having to devote too many resources on fixing and efficiently making land drops is where your edge is coming from:
for a hermit kill, a starting hand consisting of 6 lands and 1 sylvan tutor is pretty much the stones, so no flood worries there.
if the hermit plan failed, you are stuck in a hole from the start (development-wise) and need to really get going dropping lands as aggressively as possible. most opponents want to win by going big too, so you will have to get there (i.e. death cloud, X=7) first. thankfully most of them waste some amount of time slinging spot removal or putting irrelevant beats on you (imho, any spell or strategy that can be called "interactive" is almost always horrible in multiplayer commander).

plus, you are already playing all the good draw engines and tutors for them (mulligan aggressively!), so just randomly playing more spells wouldn't even give you that much more action anyway.

i don't play paper commander, but i don't think there's anything i'd really want in this list that isn't already available on modo. not sure tho.

adding basic lands would make the combo impossible (you HAVE to flip all of your cards).
just playing a death cloud deck with no combo is certainly a strategy though, since going for the hermit uses up a lot of slots and tempo. you can never go wrong playing the rock.
but i wouldn't worry too much about blood moon. it's a card that is considered "evil", so it doesn't see nowhere near the amount of play that it probably should.


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Nov-30 12:47 pm 

Joined: 2011-Nov-17 9:15 am
Age: Hatchling
Took forever for my posts to show up :(

Fast response though. I put this together (still missing Imperial Recruiter) and love it. I've found that even in casual games where I don't "go off" I still am dominating most of the game. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-01 12:37 am 

Joined: 2011-May-17 8:29 pm
Age: Drake
I'd just like to say that your responses to these questions of hate make you my kinda EDH player. Take advantage of people's fears of doing things that are "too mean" or "too evil." Be the "douchebag." If it means the players around you start realizing that mass land destruction and lockdown is important to keep strategies in check, then so be it. Someone has to do it.


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-11 8:15 am 

Joined: 2011-Dec-11 8:14 am
Age: Hatchling
No Grim Tutor?


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-14 2:46 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-15 1:40 pm
Age: Wyvern
meh.
most of the tutors in this list are awesome because they fit the curve perfectly, i.e. they tutor for the next higher drop without slowing you down. the 1-mana tutors search up your 2-drop (hermit druid), the demonic tutor searches up your 3-drop (survival with G up for a possible emergency witness, into t4 wall of roots, t5 combo without the risky flipping of the deck).
grim tutor is not great, because it either DOES slow you down by 1 full turn (going the survival route) or makes you activate hermit on t5, which is infinitely more risky/harder to pull off than it is on turn 3.


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-21 10:57 pm 

Joined: 2011-Dec-11 8:14 am
Age: Hatchling
Gotcha, makes sense. I had the chance to play this deck a bit more, and I was wondering if it might not be better with a different general, i.e. Sharuum for more combo protection? I saw a list with Sharuum/Hermit combo on mtgs and while I'm satisfied with the consistency of this one, it does seem that a few counterspells make it difficult to recover. What do you think? What were your thoughts initially on Karador vs Sharuum for a hermit combo deck?


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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-22 7:10 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
Dresden wrote:
Gotcha, makes sense. I had the chance to play this deck a bit more, and I was wondering if it might not be better with a different general, i.e. Sharuum for more combo protection? I saw a list with Sharuum/Hermit combo on mtgs and while I'm satisfied with the consistency of this one, it does seem that a few counterspells make it difficult to recover. What do you think? What were your thoughts initially on Karador vs Sharuum for a hermit combo deck?


My first thought would be that hermit Druid is Green, and Sharrum is not. kind of a non-bo.

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Norin the Wary (chaos control)
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 Post subject: Re: [Competitive] Karador Hermit/Turbo-Land
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-22 8:36 am 

Joined: 2011-Dec-11 8:14 am
Age: Hatchling
Oops I meant Scion of the Ur-Dragon, not Sharuum, lol :P


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