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 Post subject: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-10 5:41 pm 

Joined: 2018-May-01 2:01 pm
Age: Hatchling
I know that the RC does not have a high opinion of reddit as a source of quality feedback, but is there any plans for a subreddit where casual players can play and discuss cards without cEDH people coming in and making every discussion about how dumb the RC is for [insert one of many varied opinions about the banlist here]?

At the moment the de-facto EDH sub is hijacked by many pro-cEDH folks who shit on casual players and the RC incessantly. The moderator team is also pro-cEDH, and supports the pro-cEDH side in flame wars between posters. As a result you often see casuals voting on posts but not speaking up.

I think a moderated reddit board can have value in ensuring that the casual side of the format is not drowned out online by the vocal and vigorous competitive community, though its understandable if the RC finds the task too time-consuming.


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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-10 9:16 pm 
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I don't think the RC has any input into what Sub-Reddits exist or how they are used (therefore, there can't be "plans" for new sub-reddits - and you can't stop the vocal bullies from following and posting there too). I could be wrong. However, Reddit is toxic (and best avoided, IMNSHO).

Bring the casual players here (the only forum owned and run by the RC). When trolls do appear, there are enough sensible FOGs to balance the equation and/or shut them down.

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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-10 10:39 pm 

Joined: 2018-May-01 2:01 pm
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Haha by "plans for a new subreddit" I meant whether the RC would be interested in creating and moderating a new subreddit. But I don't fault them for not wanting to do so, I bet they'd be swamped with posts and attacks from the cEDH community.


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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-10 11:03 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Treamayne wrote:
I don't think the RC has any input into what Sub-Reddits exist or how they are used (therefore, there can't be "plans" for new sub-reddits - and you can't stop the vocal bullies from following and posting there too). I could be wrong. However, Reddit is toxic (and best avoided, IMNSHO).

Bring the casual players here (the only forum owned and run by the RC). When trolls do appear, there are enough sensible FOGs to balance the equation and/or shut them down.

MTGS also has an active community and a good relationship with the RC, as well as mods that keep things *mostly* civil.


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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-11 1:23 am 
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Reddit is a hard place to craft civil discussions, but it is possible. TheSilphRoad does it, but they achieve this through being a bit draconian on free discourse. Anything negative or even being constructively critical is removed (constructive criticism isn't always removed, but more often than not). And posts that are feel-good, overly praising things, but generally devoid of substance are basically promoted.

I haven't had bad experiences with the Commander subreddit, but if you lift up the rug on questions about the RC then you'll see how vile people can be.

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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-11 5:17 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I see no reason to take swipes at the more competitively-oriented folk. If they're having fun doing their thing, more power to them. As long as they're not making demands to make the format better for them, and not representing the format as a whole as intended to be the way they want it, them playing how they want is not a problem.

(Personally, I think they'd be happier going off and doing their own thing, like the French did back in the day, but they don't seem to be inclined.)

The original question presupposes there's a need for Reddit. We're certainly not short on people with opinions, and there's several reasonably-moderated places for civil discussion around (including this one). I don't think there's anything inherent to Reddit that mandates making it work for Commander discussion. Why worry?


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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-11 6:24 am 

Joined: 2018-May-01 2:01 pm
Age: Hatchling
Indeed, reddit is not the only forum around. It's just quite startling to see how the cEDH community has managed to dominate the online discourse on reddit. There was a time when anyone who asked questions about competitive EDH was directed to the cEDH subreddit. But now cEDH discussions are mainly held on the EDH subreddit, with the cEDH subreddit being used purely for strict deckbuilding advice and discussion. If you look around, cEDH posters are allowed to sling hate towards the RC and casuals, whereas any pushback against them is hammered by the mods.

But your right, there's nothing inherent to reddit that makes it an important hub for discussion, though I have to say that it's a lot more user-friendly than this site. Though the quality of discussion probably suffers for it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 3:53 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
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papa_funk wrote:
I see no reason to take swipes at the more competitively-oriented folk. If they're having fun doing their thing, more power to them. As long as they're not making demands to make the format better for them, and not representing the format as a whole as intended to be the way they want it, them playing how they want is not a problem.

(Personally, I think they'd be happier going off and doing their own thing, like the French did back in the day, but they don't seem to be inclined.)

The original question presupposes there's a need for Reddit. We're certainly not short on people with opinions, and there's several reasonably-moderated places for civil discussion around (including this one). I don't think there's anything inherent to Reddit that mandates making it work for Commander discussion. Why worry?


There's the crux of the problem. There is quite a vocal minority of players the want all of Commander to cater to them and be super competitive, a sort of singleton Legacy. They don't understand the philosophy of the format, and are of the mindset of "This card isn't explicitly banned (even though this other banned card is nearly the same), so I'm going to play it since I can't play the other one".

Fun doesn't even enter into the equation, and they treat everything cutthroat tournament style.


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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 4:15 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Maybe they find that style of play fun? Would people compete in Magic tournaments if they didn't enjoy the competition? If they game continues to grow as it has, at what point do the 75%ers become more representative of the format than the kitchen table player who doesn't care at all that they'll never own a single ABUR dual for any of their decks?


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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 4:31 am 
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In my expeirence- Reddit varies wildly from the best forum, to the absolute pits on any single topic- and I feel quite a bit of that has to do with modding philosophy- and guidelines setout about the subreddit. The current EDH subreddit is dominated by people who aren't worried about crafting an emphasis on fun playgroup experiences, because the DnD/Tarot element of EDH is completely lost on them (which I believe has more to do with competitive inexperience than genuine desire to compete.) The subreddit is harsh towards people who troll these posters, and so the social atmosphere never quite balances itself out.

The weirdest thing (I like to call it the "Reddit Paradox") is that on most forums, there are a number of trolls that are very transparent and are just about lightening the mood in threads (if anyone here was ever on the Wizards Community Forum, I'm talking about RPJesus)- where on Reddit, these guys tend to get bullied by mods- but these dorks tend to keep the angsty foul mouthed, gross-for-the-sake-of-gross trolls in check by simply being funnier, and setting a better example. Reddit mods have a mean habit of trying to crack down on trolling, only to crack down on the trolls that make posting somewhere more fun- which (probably unintentionally) incentivizes more vicious trolling.

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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-12 7:20 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
There's the crux of the problem. There is quite a vocal minority of players the want all of Commander to cater to them and be super competitive


Sure. but that's a reason to slag those people, not all players who are looking a more competitive game. And, yes, they may be more concentrated on Reddit.

Players who understand that what they're doing is not supported-mode and accept that are more than welcome to carry on doing their thing.


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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 4:39 pm 

Joined: 2018-May-01 2:01 pm
Age: Hatchling
Mr Degradation wrote:
In my expeirence- Reddit varies wildly from the best forum, to the absolute pits on any single topic- and I feel quite a bit of that has to do with modding philosophy- and guidelines setout about the subreddit. The current EDH subreddit is dominated by people who aren't worried about crafting an emphasis on fun playgroup experiences, because the DnD/Tarot element of EDH is completely lost on them (which I believe has more to do with competitive inexperience than genuine desire to compete.) The subreddit is harsh towards people who troll these posters, and so the social atmosphere never quite balances itself out.

The weirdest thing (I like to call it the "Reddit Paradox") is that on most forums, there are a number of trolls that are very transparent and are just about lightening the mood in threads (if anyone here was ever on the Wizards Community Forum, I'm talking about RPJesus)- where on Reddit, these guys tend to get bullied by mods- but these dorks tend to keep the angsty foul mouthed, gross-for-the-sake-of-gross trolls in check by simply being funnier, and setting a better example. Reddit mods have a mean habit of trying to crack down on trolling, only to crack down on the trolls that make posting somewhere more fun- which (probably unintentionally) incentivizes more vicious trolling.


Haha you couldn't be more spot-on about the competitive inexperience portion. These players complain and ridicule the social contract, saying that nothing that cannot be enforced by the rules should be expected in the game. In the same breath they'll say that collusion doesn't happen in their games because true Spikes play for "the sake of the competition" and not for winning (but this apparently does not represent any form of social contract at all :roll: )

In fact in there was recently a cEDH tournament report where collusion was apparently present and people could do nothing except to suck it up. For a community who keeps trumpeting that the RC is holding EDH back from becoming a tourney format, they sure are blind to the realities of competitive play.


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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 5:06 pm 
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You're free to make a casual EDH subreddit with your own rules.

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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-14 3:51 am 
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Lord_Bolas wrote:
Haha you couldn't be more spot-on about the competitive inexperience portion. These players complain and ridicule the social contract, saying that nothing that cannot be enforced by the rules should be expected in the game. In the same breath they'll say that collusion doesn't happen in their games because true Spikes play for "the sake of the competition" and not for winning (but this apparently does not represent any form of social contract at all :roll: )

In fact in there was recently a cEDH tournament report where collusion was apparently present and people could do nothing except to suck it up. For a community who keeps trumpeting that the RC is holding EDH back from becoming a tourney format, they sure are blind to the realities of competitive play.


A few things-

I. Comp REL IS a social contract- and encourages polite play at high levels. It's a strategic disadvantage to be rude, accusatory, or otherwise generally on-tilt. Magic is one part Poker, and one part resource management- concealing and obtaining information is vital, and both elements of high level play are only enhanced when you can treat an adversary like a good acquaintance over the course of a game.

Relative to EDH- this often manifests itself in players who jam Rhystic Study into decks even where it clearly doesn't belong- they're rude about triggers, get jumpy about drawing extra cards, and aren't able to predict the political ramifications of playing a resource denial card in the first place. Like Arbiter, they tend to overvalue protecting Rhystic Study, even though letting their opponent destroy it puts them into a much stronger position since the card has already generated advantage and is now swallowing one of their opponent's resources. Rhystic Study is at it's best when you allow your opponents to play like they're under a constant Force Spike, and are gentle about reminding them of it's trigger- and then allow them to destroy it at their leisure- where getting into a counter-war to protect leads to blowout turns where skilled pilots with tuned decks will eat right through any advantage the RS built up to begin with.

II. Collusion is more difficult to define in EDH than in regular magic- since a major element of good EDH IS political positioning. This is an element of why multiplayer isn't especially friendly to a game with stakes higher than king-of-the-hill. Collusion in the realm of the multiplayer hands is an expected element that is necessary to maintain interest- where collusion outside of the game realm is entirely unfriendly to a competitive atmosphere.

III. Afaik- people who actually play cEDH as an alternative to Vintage aren't down on the RC, or averse to taking custom rulesets into their own hands. I think The Labratory Maniacs are more indicative of the community builtup around cEDH than complacent posters. What's nifty about EDH in the first place- is that many of these decks simply get foiled by the excess combo-busting tools available- which while not typical to the meta, does allow you to participate with a fairer, engine based strategy. These aren't selfish hermits who want to play high-end combo magic because they have no concept of fun, they just want to push the game to it's terminal power-level, and push their skills with the tools available through fast, cutt-throat games; but the atmosphere is often light-hearted and thoughtful. They have the experience required to separate the gamestate from the socialstate of the playgroup.

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 Post subject: Re: The Value of reddit as a discussion platform
AgePosted: 2018-May-14 3:32 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I will offer my thought on competitive players in the form of an anecdote:

I consider myself a stalwart of the casual game style, very much in line with the "build casual, play competitively" idea, however when the local 2HG commander night became a bit too cut-throat thanks to a couple of decks we decided to have a one night only, no-holds-barred event. I built a maralen combo deck, borrowed an LED and a few other expensive cards from people I know that play legacy and rocked up with my team-mate (who was playing teferi lockout). There was one pair of opponents.

We played a few games and my team lost, turns out piloting a F1 racecar after you've been driving around in a hatchback your whole life is hard, but we had a good time. I learned two things about the competitive scene; the first is that when everyone is playing the same kind of game, game actually go for a while, it's not all T3 I win, there is a battle of resources and the games usually went for 5-10 turns, the second is that it's fun. We were laughing and chatting like any good social game of EDH.

Mr Degradation's post reminded me of this experience because as he points out, being a competitive player doesnt make a jerk, it just happens that there are a number of loud jerks on reddit.

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