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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-24 8:56 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Results Updates:

24 Aug: Results updated with Uktabi_Kong's Scores and comments.

26 Aug: BKM Scores and Comments; Viperion Scores posted.

Watch here for notes on updates to the remainder of the results. Feel free to start posting now. PM me with any disputes you may have.

Enjoy

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HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


Last edited by Treamayne on 2014-Aug-25 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-24 9:04 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I want to say thank you to all the judges, you all are amazing and I totally appreciate your feedback.

With I believe the Kong rating three decks tied at 17's I think this will be a close and fun match to see as the judgments come in.

I also want to say thank you to all the competitors because these decks are awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-24 9:14 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Hey folks,

I've rated the decks (Treamayne has the results) but he's waiting on comments from me as I haven't provided any yet; I had a great plan to do all the judging for this but then my last week went to... well, it rhymes with "hit". So the results are there, and I'll provide comments - hopefully - in the next few days.

I'll echo what Tim said though, this was a VERY VERY good round and therefore very hard to judge. Very high quality entries all round!

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-24 9:16 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Hey folks,

I've rated the decks (Treamayne has the results) but he's waiting on comments from me as I haven't provided any yet; I had a great plan to do all the judging for this but then my last week went to... well, it rhymes with "hit". So the results are there, and I'll provide comments - hopefully - in the next few days.

I'll echo what Tim said though, this was a VERY VERY good round and therefore very hard to judge. Very high quality entries all round!


If the contestants want, I can post Viperion's scores while we await his comments. I just thought the scores would mean more with the comments attached.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-24 9:41 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Treamayne wrote:
Viperion wrote:
Hey folks,

I've rated the decks (Treamayne has the results) but he's waiting on comments from me as I haven't provided any yet; I had a great plan to do all the judging for this but then my last week went to... well, it rhymes with "hit". So the results are there, and I'll provide comments - hopefully - in the next few days.

I'll echo what Tim said though, this was a VERY VERY good round and therefore very hard to judge. Very high quality entries all round!


If the contestants want, I can post Viperion's scores while we await his comments. I just thought the scores would mean more with the comments attached.


I'm okay with just scores, comments are better, but the more the sooner the better. People just need to hold off on disputes.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-24 10:10 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
"Response for Orzhov vs Gruul"

Uktabi_Kong wrote:

[b]Elegance: 2 out of 5

Comments: The deck is mostly easily accessible, not too costly, and synergistic. The one problem is that it's not very fun to play with or against. Particularly playing against it is grinding and there isn't much actual close combat. Most of the time, the deck is either obviously going to win or its obviously going to lose. There is rarely a middle ground.


I don't have a true complaint about the scoring, but an overall comment to make about the color combination. The Orzhov Syndicate, when you dig deep into the design behind the cards and begin to understand the essence of the color combination, you find something quite interesting:

Mark Rosewater wrote:
The most typical white-black deck is what we in R&D call a bleeder deck. The idea behind a bleeder deck is simple: Take control of the game and then slowly plink the opponent to death. To make this happen, white-black wants two main things (and as we saw above, these two things will often be on the same card):

White-black wants to remove threats: As the color pair that is best at optimizing systems, white-black understands that the key to winning is, first, not losing. The trick there is analyzing the opponent’s strategy and taking out the key cards that allow him or her to win. With the tools to handle any kind of card, including cards in other zones, white and black is good at both pinpoint and mass removal.
White-black uses small incremental threats that are hard to remove: White-black then works hard to make its threats less vulnerable. The key to doing this is to both have patience—it doesn’t matter how long a victory takes if you win—and spreading its threats around. White-black never puts all its eggs in one basket. White-black is hard to stop because it provides lots of tiny threats rather than one or two large ones. This isn’t to say that white-black can never have larger threats, but those threats have to also have a secondary function to keep their removal from being too much of a setback.
White-black follows this plan and it will win, slowly but decidedly.
Designing for Orzhov

In short, the Black-White color combination is the quintessential small creature ping-er deck. To play a big creature Orzhov deck is both asking for game lose and going against their design. Unfortunately, we associate ping-er decks with 'bad'--this makes designing an Orzhov deck difficult. Either the deck won't perform very well, or you're playing a deck people aren't always going to enjoy playing against.

There is, of course, a deck strategy which encourages big creatures: Reanimator. Reanimator would allow for a beefy-creature-beat-down-sort-of deck; however, I dropped this possibility very early on. Two problems: ping-er decks might make people uncomfortable, but Reanimator is one of the combo boogeymen of the format with its own massive stigmas; also, Reanimation is mostly a Golgari tactic, and so isn't exactly the Orzhov way (mostly, because the Orzhov would rather you stay dead so they can enslave your spirit).

I find it unfortunate my logical conclusion for the Orzhov Syndicate is a ping-er deck. It is truly, truly who the Orzhov are, and yet hated. Your score here is probably correct, but I am equally frustrated about being forced into such a score here.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-24 12:05 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Treamayne wrote:
"Response for Orzhov vs Gruul"

Uktabi_Kong wrote:

[b]Elegance: 2 out of 5

Comments: The deck is mostly easily accessible, not too costly, and synergistic. The one problem is that it's not very fun to play with or against. Particularly playing against it is grinding and there isn't much actual close combat. Most of the time, the deck is either obviously going to win or its obviously going to lose. There is rarely a middle ground.


I don't have a true complaint about the scoring, but an overall comment to make about the color combination. The Orzhov Syndicate, when you dig deep into the design behind the cards and begin to understand the essence of the color combination, you find something quite interesting:

Mark Rosewater wrote:
The most typical white-black deck is what we in R&D call a bleeder deck. The idea behind a bleeder deck is simple: Take control of the game and then slowly plink the opponent to death. To make this happen, white-black wants two main things (and as we saw above, these two things will often be on the same card):

White-black wants to remove threats: As the color pair that is best at optimizing systems, white-black understands that the key to winning is, first, not losing. The trick there is analyzing the opponent’s strategy and taking out the key cards that allow him or her to win. With the tools to handle any kind of card, including cards in other zones, white and black is good at both pinpoint and mass removal.
White-black uses small incremental threats that are hard to remove: White-black then works hard to make its threats less vulnerable. The key to doing this is to both have patience—it doesn’t matter how long a victory takes if you win—and spreading its threats around. White-black never puts all its eggs in one basket. White-black is hard to stop because it provides lots of tiny threats rather than one or two large ones. This isn’t to say that white-black can never have larger threats, but those threats have to also have a secondary function to keep their removal from being too much of a setback.
White-black follows this plan and it will win, slowly but decidedly.
Designing for Orzhov

In short, the Black-White color combination is the quintessential small creature ping-er deck. To play a big creature Orzhov deck is both asking for game lose and going against their design. Unfortunately, we associate ping-er decks with 'bad'--this makes designing an Orzhov deck difficult. Either the deck won't perform very well, or you're playing a deck people aren't always going to enjoy playing against.

There is, of course, a deck strategy which encourages big creatures: Reanimator. Reanimator would allow for a beefy-creature-beat-down-sort-of deck; however, I dropped this possibility very early on. Two problems: ping-er decks might make people uncomfortable, but Reanimator is one of the combo boogeymen of the format with its own massive stigmas; also, Reanimation is mostly a Golgari tactic, and so isn't exactly the Orzhov way (mostly, because the Orzhov would rather you stay dead so they can enslave your spirit).

I find it unfortunate my logical conclusion for the Orzhov Syndicate is a ping-er deck. It is truly, truly who the Orzhov are, and yet hated. Your score here is probably correct, but I am equally frustrated about being forced into such a score here.

I fully agree with everything you've said here. However, to be honest, I heartily enjoy pinger decks. The big thing that separates most pinger decks from the type of deck Orzhov tends to be is one thing: the difference between drain and pain. Pain is when you're taking a beating but if you can fight through it, you've got a nice clean shot at your opponent to win. Drain on the other hand you're still taking a beating, but your opponent is also growing stronger at the same time.

Also, while I would say the BW and/or Orzhov mechanics and themes certainly take part of the blame, I'd say a smaller but still relevant part of the blame falls on the way the deck was constructed. This deck was different from a lot of pain/pinger decks I've fought or run not only due to the drain, but also the fact that your deck was built to have those "in debt" creatures staying around for a while, making it harder for more aggressive decks to break through. Also, you mentioned that big creatures aren't exactly a specialty of Orzhov, but I'd argue there should have been some kind of finisher, whether it be some demon or a much more powerful and in-your-face pinger card like Wound Relfection. The way the deck is now, there are very few cards with the actual intention to end the game, so it turns into a marathon to see how long everyone can stand the drain instead of a systematic weakening of everybody until you get them into the right position to go for the kill.

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III Omnath, Locus of Mana III Thada Adel, Acquisitor III Geth, Lord of the Vault III Eight-and-a-Half-Tails III Zo-Zu the Punisher III BruseIkra III Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis III Kess, Dissident Mage, III AkriSilas III Grenzo, Havoc Raiser III Ghalta, Primal Hunger III Ambassador Laquatus III Anax and Cymede III Sidisi, Brood Tyrant III Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest III Ghave, Guru of Spores III Zurgo Helmsmasher III Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder III


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-24 4:45 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
Feedback is looking good so far, looking forward to the final replies to be posted :)

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Uriel wrote:

I didn't failed nothing


My EDH Cube


Last edited by maiden77 on 2014-Aug-24 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-24 7:38 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
We are still at the Anonymous stage - Entrants should not be revealing which deck is yours yet.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-24 8:54 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RE: Golgari vs Boros

First of all thank you for the great ratings. I really like playing with the deck.

I agree with your comments, I think your spot on.

Quote:
However, it avoided a perfect score due to the fact that Sisters is literally the ONLY general in the deck, as opposed to the official precons and many of the other contestants' submissions, where there were multiple generals that could be switched and have the deck still function. Personally, I would have included Varolz and maybe some non-Ravnican BG general like Glissa.


The rarity cap is the most important reason no other legendary BG creature is in the deck. The rares didn't work well enough with the deck. I have no real sacrifice effects for Savra, Queen of the Golgari. The base power of creatures in the deck is extremely low for their casting cost. This made Varolz, the Scar-Striped not interesting. The only rare I liked was Vhati il-Dal, because of his synergy with the deck, but I was already low on high impact creatures in the deck and didn't want to cut one of the low CMC deathtouch creatures.

Three mythics were interesting and were the last three cuts. Glissa, the Traitor was cut because only 8 artifacts are in the deck and only 1 has a sacrifice effect. If she was one of the mythics I should have increased the amount of artifacts and that was not viable for the strategy of the deck.

After reading your comment I should have switched Grave Titan or Deadbridge Chant to either Jarad, golgari Lich lord or Pharika, god of affliction. Both provide the threat and reach the other two cards provide to the deck. I don't think the deck would be as fun to play with either one of those as commander though and both grave titan and deadbridge chant were really fun to play with during playtesting.

I do have one other legendary creature in the deck namely Hythonia, the cruel but you need to rebuilt the deck to make it mono black.

So another big thank you to the judges and Treamayne for organizing this competition

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-26 7:21 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Okay here is the list so far (still disputes and such so this isn't the final):

1st Golgari vs Boros 46
2nd Dimir vs Selesnya 44
2nd Izzet vs Simic 44
4th Izzet vs Izzet 43
4th Simic vs Rakdos 43
6th Boros vs Golgari 41
7th Orzhov vs Gruul 40
8th Azorius vs Rakdos 38
8th Izzet vs Orzhov 38
10th Gruul vs Orzhov 36

I do have a general question for all the judges regarding what 'elegance' is in their mind. More specifically for BKM sine Uktabi Kong gave specific comments for it, and Viperion is working on their comments.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-26 12:27 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
To me, elegance is a combination of a lot of things. It's the aesthetics and personality of the sum of your cards, how harmoniously they work together, how enjoyable it is to use the deck both intellectually and physically, as well as the price it took to put together. Ultimately, all those work together to affect the most important part, which is how fun it is to play against.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-26 12:39 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-10 12:16 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
From Izzet vs. Izzet to BKM

Quote:
What do you do if you play against fliers??


In a general sense the deck has a number of answers to the fliers issue, Archetype of Imagination, Scourge of Kher Ridges, Dizzying Gaze, Rough // Tumble, or just a Capsize, Rekindled Flame, etc. or the ever present amount of fliers in the deck or a large flying Slumbering Titan.

I agree about the elegance issue and plea for lenience (I think a 2 is really harsh). I think Izzet is one of the more complex guilds and requires a more experienced player, and that Izzet gets hit for complexity like Orzhov gets hit for unfun. I thought by doing Izzet vs. Izzet you'd be tailored more for those experienced players than if I did Izzet vs. Gruul.

_________________
V/R

HK

Hazezon Tamar - Manland theme
Seshiro the Anointed - Snake Tribal
Jedit Ojanen of Efrava - Cat and Warrior Dual Tribal
Doran, the Seige Tower - Wall Tribal
Progenitus - Hydra themed Proliferate Deck
Karona, the False God - Backstabbing Hug


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-26 12:54 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
See, I knew I would get hammered for misunderstanding the challenge. That's why I wanted my entry pulled. :(

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Chef: EDH Edition - Battle Guild Wars
AgePosted: 2014-Aug-26 6:50 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
Not gonna reply directly to my feedback in case we are supposed to remain anonymous still, but I just want to say, that the feedback is all great and I am happy with my deck and the challenge as a whole. Can't wait to join in on the next one and hopefully fight for the title and the gold commander of doom! Thanks to all the judges for what must have been a pretty large time investment, and ofc, thanks to all my fellow contestants (less to those who beat me though! :twisted: ) looks like we all had a good effort with these, grats to the winners and I look forward to more activities and also joining in with the Grixis gift exchange after missing the last two due to moving house and being too busy during both!

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Uriel wrote:

I didn't failed nothing


My EDH Cube


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