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 Post subject: Decklist points discussion time
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 12:29 pm 
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Location: Canberra
This thread originally requested decklists so I can score them so others can see how decklist points work in a tournament. I believe I have provided enough examples and I would now like to discuss the value of this system for EDH tournaments. I am interested in discussing with anyone that is likely to organize a tournament or anyone who is able to influence an organizer.

Game points have been explained in further detail to give decklist points more context. Note that there are 3 matches to get game points in.

Game Points

There are conditions during a game that will decide a player's game score. The winner of the tourmament will be the player with the highest total score, where games score and decklist score are combined.

Each condition has a positive or negative points value. Some conditions are cumulative. The values in parentheses are the maximum number of points you can be granted in a game for that condition.

Positive Points:

Win: +16 pts (16)
Second place: +8 pts (8)
Kill an opponent with Commander combat damage: +2 pts (6)
Cast a Commander from the Command zone a third time: +5 pts (5)
Cast a spell with CMC 8 or more from hand by paying the mana cost: +1 pt (3)
(subjective) Clear the board of 20 or more nonland permanents with 1 card: +1 pt (1)
(subjective) Help an opponent out by targeting them with a draw spell or ability: +3 pts (3)
(subjective) Help an opponent out by saving them from immediate death: +3 pts (3)

Negative Points:

Take an extra turn: -1 pt (-10)
Take control of an opponent's turn: -3 pts (-6)
Cast a spell with CMC 13 or more: -5 pts (-15)
Remove an opponent's mana-ability only land: -1 pt (-16)
(conditional) Knock an opponent to 10 with Sorin or Magister Sphinx: -3 pts (-3)
(subjective) Win the game through infinite combo: -8 pts (-8)

FAQ

If there is a tie for second, each of those players gets 8 pts. If there is no winner (ie game goes to time or everyone died), the last surviving players get 8 pts each.

All subjective points will be ruled on by the TO. Feel free to ask the TO mid game before making a decision. Otherwise the game state has to be described to the TO at the end of the game.

Clearing a board will cover most (but not all) destroy, exile, sacrifice, and 0 toughness effects. The main reason the effects wouldn't count is if the board state didn't reset. An uneven board wipe or living death are examples of a board state not resetting. In specific game states a bounce effect might count.

To help an opponent with draw or saving them, you need to lose a resource you didn't have to lose. It doesn't count if the draw spell or ability doesn't target. It doesn't count as saving an opponent if you are also saving yourself. One way for these points to not count is if you have gone infinite and therefore are not losing any resources. This bonus can also apply to very specific situations that aren't draw or saving an opponent, but you must ask the TO. An example would be giving an opponent both lands from a fertilid. This wouldn't count though if your fertilid was bigger than 2, so there are exceptions even to the exceptions.

Removing a mana-ability only land will count destroy, exile, sacrifice, 0 toughness, and bounce. The penalty for ruination and other half wipes will be calculated as the difference between mana-ability only and non-mana ability lands, with at best 0 pts lost. There is no penalty for moons. Cabal coffers, Gaea's cradle, and Serra's Sanctum will count as non-mana ability lands.

You can receive +1 pt for a spell with CMC 13 or more, as well as -5 pts. Blinkmoth Infusion, Autochthon Wurm, and Draco are exempt.

Magister Sphinx and Sorin penalty won't count if used on an opponent with less than or equal to 20 life, as well as greater than or equal to 80 life. Additionally, this won't count for any player that was also affected by the ability, given they were between 20 and 80 life. If player A hits player B, and then player C hits player A, player A won't lose the points but player C will. The idea isn't to discourage the cards themselves, just bad experiences from them.

The infinite combo penalty only applies to someone that has won the game. However it will not matter how many turns passed after the infinite combo. Players are encouraged to not go infinite if they accidentally have the chance to. Decklists with obvious infinite combos will also be hit in decklist points. Finally, some combos aren't technically infinite but have a large number of loops. A rule of thumb is if the number of loops is more than the number of lands you control the combo will count as infinite. Feel free to ask the TO if it counts.


Original first post below.

I raised a suggestion of decklist points in the Q&A thread because it's something I'm seriously considering. My background to this idea is that I played tournament level warhammer 40k for a few years, and then ended up running tournaments. Before I quit I had run over 10 tournaments averaging 50 people and largest at 80 something.

As Ban-Ki-Moon pointed out in the Q&A thread, warhammer is a broken game. The rules as written are ill-defined and subjective, and even once a tournament specific FAQ comes out to answer all the rules loopholes, the army builds themselves can be very unbalanced. To counter this, warhammer tournaments in many regions in the world introduce a "composition score" based on the make-up of the army list.

I've decided that I'll leave how this works for a later time, those with a warhammer background know how it works and those that don't will possibly spend days arguing with me for how subjective and unfair this system is. Instead, submit links to decklists, and I will rate it. I might be incredibly wrong in my rating. Additionally, I don't really have a baseline, so my original ratings are likely to be higher (more points) than they should be. Don't submit decklists here, just a URL to the decklist, and make sure the decklist is in the first post. Alongside the URL, name the commander and provide a sentence describing it.

zimagic wrote:
onlainari wrote:
Joz wrote:
And what exactly is a deck scored on?

Competitiveness. The less competitive, the higher the score. Bringing the best deck doesn't make you the best player. It might make you a better deckbuilder, however this system rewards better players, whether they are playing a strong or a weak deck.



How do you score a deck? Is it based on % of staples / obvious combos? How do you physically organise the scoring of decks for an event? Pre-submitted deck-lists? Do you have a Meta barometer (i.e. if someone plays graveyard based zombies in a meta where every deck has 3-4 yard hosers and at least one tutor for at least one of those answers is this taken into account?)? Do Mono-red decks automatically get the highest score?

Edit: How do you apply the score? A "better" deck coming 1st at a table is worth the same as a "worse" deck getting 2nd?

I'm not down on the idea at all, it sounds very interesting, but the paperwork sounds a bit time consuming and very subjective.

As a TO, I spent the week beforehand marking every armylist. Most of my tournaments also had players marking their opponents as well. It is very subjective however it's amazing how often the score is right. Additionally, the idea isn't to change who wins. At my tournaments, the person with the most "battle points" still usually won, the major effect of introducing the comp score to the system was that everyone brought nicer army lists.

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Last edited by onlainari on 2012-Oct-23 12:52 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 12:42 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
All my sig'd deck links.

go.


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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 1:35 pm 
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Some context for the points. Each time I ran a warhammer tournament, the points system changed. Fundamentally, each system was very similar, with the bulk of the points coming from the battle itself and the rest coming from "soft scores" such as "comp" "sports" and "painting".

For Commander tournaments I cannot have an exact total as it would be practically impossible to achieve all the points. The game of Commander will have points gained or lost for doing certain things. I have arbitrarily decided that for this thread, the winner will receive 20 points, and second place will receive 10 points. The bonus points will result to about 7.5 for an average player doing average things. That's an average of 60 points per match, 15 per player. There will be 3 matches, but only 1 "comp score". So an average "battle score" is about 45 points. I want the average comp score to be 15 points. I will mark the comp out of 30, and I expect a huge amount of clumping in the upper-middle as opposed to an even distribution.

Joz wrote:
All my sig'd deck links.

go.

I'll pretend the banned cards have been swapped out.

Rayne: Has an infinite combo and almost guaranteed to get there given most of the decks at the tournament are friendly. It's stopped by a lot of instant speed artifact, creature, or enchantment removal however you have plenty of counter backup. I don't believe this game would end well however it gets bonus points for the combo being weaker than what is available.

15 points.

Azusa: This is not exactly the stock-standard build, it has a lot more interactive elements. However it still reaks of durdle durdle smash without giving anyone a chance to play the game. This is one of the decklists that would never show up to the tournament because they've practically comp-scored themselves out of winning a prize.

2 points.

Lady Evengela: I didn't see the combo if there is one. I suspect you would remove identity crisis if playing in this tournament because it's not strong enough to justify the comp hit you take for it. Otherwise this deck is just fine to play.

18 points (22 without identity crisis).

Kiki-Jiki: It's a shame, but mono red has to take a hit when you add this with Zealous Conscripts. The deck isn't the strongest and it's pretty easy to play the game missing the combo. It just turns out that mono red lead by Kiki-Jiki isn't as weak as people think it is.

18 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 2:10 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
onlainari wrote:

Joz wrote:
All my sig'd deck links.

go.

I'll pretend the banned cards have been swapped out.

Rayne: Has an infinite combo and almost guaranteed to get there given most of the decks at the tournament are friendly. It's stopped by a lot of instant speed artifact, creature, or enchantment removal however you have plenty of counter backup. I don't believe this game would end well however it gets bonus points for the combo being weaker than what is available.

15 points.
There are no "Banned cards". And I hope the combo you're talking about is the "Infinite Time Stop Loop (tm)".

Quote:
Azusa: This is not exactly the stock-standard build, it has a lot more interactive elements. However it still reaks of durdle durdle smash without giving anyone a chance to play the game. This is one of the decklists that would never show up to the tournament because they've practically comp-scored themselves out of winning a prize.

2 points.
....I didn't realize using 15 different cards just to do one combo, was "durdle durdle smash"...but who am I to judge your scoring.

Quote:
Lady Evengela: I didn't see the combo if there is one. I suspect you would remove identity crisis if playing in this tournament because it's not strong enough to justify the comp hit you take for it. Otherwise this deck is just fine to play.

18 points (22 without identity crisis).

IdCrisis is for the "real" combo players. The deck has no combo, as you suspect.

Quote:
Kiki-Jiki: It's a shame, but mono red has to take a hit when you add this with Zealous Conscripts. The deck isn't the strongest and it's pretty easy to play the game missing the combo. It just turns out that mono red lead by Kiki-Jiki isn't as weak as people think it is.

18 points.


A Zealous is a must for a Kiki deck, using it without the intention to go infinite (I don't, even when I get both in play.) So, only 18 points for a strong multiplayer oriented non-combo oriented kiki-jiki list with non-standard cards?

What exactly do you score on? People using Elephant Ambush?


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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 2:15 pm 
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Location: Canberra
Joz wrote:
There are no "Banned cards".

Primeval titan and Sundering Titan are present in two of your decks. There's a reason I placed that sentence above Rayne, it's a syntax thing. Your comments come across as aggressive so I will take them with a grain of salt. I am doing this for the benefit of those interested in the system and want to know more. I completely admit that I am going to start off being all over the place, and I'm sorry for that.

I honestly thought doubling cube was a combo itself (I think you can bounce and recast it infinitely).

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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 2:22 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
onlainari wrote:
Joz wrote:
There are no "Banned cards".

Primeval titan and Sundering Titan are present in two of your decks. There's a reason I placed that sentence above Rayne, it's a syntax thing. Your comments come across as aggressive so I will take them with a grain of salt. I am doing this for the benefit of those interested in the system and want to know more. I completely admit that I am going to start off being all over the place, and I'm sorry for that.

I honestly thought doubling cube was a combo itself (I think you can bounce and recast it infinitely).

Oh, right Prime Time.

Just replace it with Silverglade Elemental and Sundering Titan with...i dont remember.


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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 2:36 pm 
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lol
Quote:
I've decided that I'll leave how this works for a later time, those with a warhammer background know how it works and those that don't will possibly spend days arguing with me for how subjective and unfair this system is.


I'm curious. This seems neat.

WUr trinkets and blink (middle of that page)
Lovecraft cultists
Hive mind group hug(?), rate either/both, Kaho is the general if I have to play by the rules.
An old Stonebrow beat down (bottom of that page)

Do you actually have any metrics that you're using, or do you just read the decklists and say, "yeah, I'd like to play against that"?


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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 3:34 pm 
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Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Do you actually have any metrics that you're using, or do you just read the decklists and say, "yeah, I'd like to play against that"?

It's a little impractical to have metrics when decklists contain 70-90 different elements that can combine in incalculable ways. The scoring requires someone of great experience to be able to look at a decklist and sit it next to similar decklists until you find the appropriate spot. The number itself is far more arbitrary than the ranking. Ranking is a lot easier to do objectively, and that's the ultimate goal. Once a ranking is determined the points are distributed to get the desired average and upper middle clumping.

Again, I have to assume the banned cards (actually I only found 1) are replaced by something else.

Additionally, your decklists are not in the first post. I originally wrote this post only marking the decklists in the first post. I then went back and did Oros and Stonebrow because you're Ban Ki Moon. This means I didn't mark your Numot originally, instead I marked intreped's. I'll mark yours soon.

Numot scraps: This deck is quite brilliant and I don't see any issues with its strategy. It would lose a lot of points if it included LED. I think it can be powerful and is clearly built to its maximum internal capacity, but I'm pretty sure you have to be a good pilot to get anything out of it.

24 points.

Nebuchadnezzar underworld theme: This deck is oozing with flavor. There are a number of choices here that are strictly a drawback. The playables in the deck are really only there to keep it alive. There is only one correct result for this.

30 points.

Hive Mind: Would probably be banned from the tournament.

0 points.

Momir Vig, Simic Visionary: Pretty boring decklist, but at least there's nothing over the top. It's not the most powerful decklist but it would probably trump many a casual game.

14 points.

Oros, the Avenger: Weak deck, but with black Myojin and Catastrophe. There's nothing wrong with having a weak deck, in fact this format is meant to promote that weak decks are okay! I'm not criticising the deck constructor in you, maybe it's just your style to play underwhelming spells.

20 points (22 without Myojin and Catastrophe).

Stonebrow, the Angriest Krosan Hero: Cool smash face idea. A number of very good cards combined with some decent on-theme spells. This is the idea that an EDH deck should strive for. However, not everyone likes warp-world.

19 points.

I'm TO of this theoretical tournament. Every real tournament I've been TO, there have been a small group of players obsessively interested in how their personal deck scores and even how other decks score. The majority of players (90%) just take their score and either are happy or sad. I try my best to please as many as possible, however I always have to take into account that all opinions are held. Some people think Azusa is a fair Commander and should score a good score. I just have to take the flaming from those players for the benefit of the tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 5:20 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Interesting idea. What about the Damia and Sheoldred lists linked in my sig?

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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 5:47 pm 
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Aggro_zombies wrote:
Interesting idea. What about the Damia and Sheoldred lists linked in my sig?

Sheoldred: All cabal coffers lists take a hit but the funny thing is that it's probably worth the hit anyway given how much more a) you win b) you have fun. Also the deck is not playing an exsanguinate strategy and in fact I can feel a bit of theme in it. It's difficult to evaluate an infect list as it incites such strong emotions in some players. I personally think infect is great but I'll try and point you without that bias. Plenty of staples so no real bonus points beyond cutting exsanguinate. This is not the strongest mono black general but it is one of the more annoying cards to play against.

18 points.

Damia: At first the list looked boring but then I noticed some interesting graveyard and hand disruption elements to it. However hand disruption is not worth any points even when it's interesting. I understand that it's a valid mechanic and that's why I disagree with hitting a list for it, leaving it as a neutral mechanic with regards to decklist points. I can't see anyone complaining too much about this list and it's being a lot fairer than it has to be.

21 points.

Ban Ki-Moon's Numot: I couldn't find the infinite combo no matter how hard I looked. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have an enabling sac outlet. That's very relevant and changes the points significantly. The list looks very fun just like intreped's, but it's also quite different. I'd say you have the stronger list of the two with more durable board positions. So you take the lower comp points and hopefully make up for it with more wins.

19 points.

From now on though I will refuse to mark lists that aren't in the first post of the thread. Sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 6:20 pm 
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Interested....

My Tariel list:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11663

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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 6:28 pm 
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Pysces wrote:
Interested....

My Tariel list:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11663

Tariel, Reckoner of Souls: This is an extremely clever deck with very well thought out complex synergies. I can't fault it for any specific card choices. One problem though is I think the deck leans a bit too much on your opponents to disrupt your other opponents and doesn't actually complete the objective laid out in the intro. That however is irrelevant to the score. I also can't give it bonus points just for being clever, you'll get those when you play the game.

20 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 7:01 pm 
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Hmm let's see if grok this...

Another list:

Sisters of Stone Death:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10881

Ignore the Titan, old list...

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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 8:01 pm 
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Pysces wrote:
Hmm let's see if grok this...

Another list:

Sisters of Stone Death:

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10881

Ignore the Titan, old list...

Sisters of Stone Death: Solid list. This kind of list is acceptible but it wouldn't ever lose to the nicer lists I want to see at my tournament.

14 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Decklist points (submit decks here for rating)
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-02 8:18 pm 
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Okay, I think follow... or at least understand what you are judging on...

Is there a cap to the points distributed?

Or does a cap even matter, since the points earned are relative to the pool of lists presented?

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