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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 12:55 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-03 12:46 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Sweden
I dont see what is so great about this. It's just a Liege of the Hollows effect without recursion shenanigans.

I doubt it will see much play.


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 1:53 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
intelos wrote:
I dont see what is so great about this. It's just a Liege of the Hollows effect without recursion shenanigans.

I doubt it will see much play.


In a dedicated soldier deck, it's obviously good as your soldiers will have advantages & boosts that opponent's soldiers won't have. Any sort of Anthem effect outside of Crusade will benefit your team over your opponents.

Any sort of CIP effect like Soul Warden is obviously huge and it can potentially kill with Suture Priest. It's a lot more one-sided when you're gaining 5 & each opponent is losing 5.

And the whole politics of it is huge: a player desperatly needing chump blockers against huge creatures suddenly has them and will pay you for them. The fact that those other player also get some 1/1s is largely irrelevant if they don't have an on-table means to take advantage of that.

In the Suture Priest situation with a particular player on low life, you can pay W and let your remaining opponents pay the soldiers for you in order to kill the low hanging fruit.

Looks very interesting. Just because it's not a "HULK SMASH!" card doesn't make it bad, just that you may have to engage your brain to play it.

And it raises interesting questions on whether this mechanic will be available to all colours and, if so, what those cards will be.


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 5:04 am 
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Joined: 2009-Apr-23 12:25 pm
Age: Drake
Doesn't seem too exciting, but I'll wait to see it in action before judging.


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 6:07 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Seems like the kind of card that might work... once. After that, no one except you will be paying squat, making it a very bad decree of justice.


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 6:11 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-03 10:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Interesting. I don't know if it's any GOOD, but it is at least interesting.

I'll probably try this in Rhys, but given the amount of goodies for tokens in that deck I doubt very much that very many people in my usual playgroup will take the bait. (Among other things, Doubling Season seems like a good reason not to play this card against the Green player "X=10? Cool, 10 more guys for me...") I suppose if you have the aforementioned Suture Priest shenanigans and want to kill someone this could be OK, but otherwise if I am the non-active player I'm almost never going to pay mana into this card.

I hope there's a Prosperity variant of Join Forces for Nicol Bolas and/or Wrexial... I doubt many people will pay into that, either, but decks without a lot of card draw otherwise might be tempted into paying some of the X for those extra cards. The fools. *ominous laughter*

obsidiandice wrote:
I wonder whether we will see exclusively symmetrical effects like this (card draw, life loss, creature sac, etc.) or whether we'll see some aggressive "gang up" versions like:

Gang Violence - RR
Sorcery
Join Forces - Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of mana. Gang Violence deals X damage to target player, where X is the total amount of mana paid this way.


Hope this kind of variant 'gang up' effect gets printed. A good way to get players who have run out of gas to have some sort of effect on the field, which is especially useful when it's you and two 'dead weight' generals trying to take down a Zur deck before he locks the game down, for example.


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 7:08 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-01 5:53 pm
Age: Drake
Interesting. Elegant design, powerful effect, and Rare is a pretty good slot for this I think. Giving your opponents creatures may be bad, but you have solutions for that in hand already, right?


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 7:30 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-19 6:32 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
I would never spend mana on this. Ever. But thanks for the tokens, guys.


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 9:17 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Filth wrote:
I would never spend mana on this. Ever. But thanks for the tokens, guys.

QFT. Assuming I'm not the one casting this (and I won't be, because I hate this mechanic), I'm hard-pressed to think of a situation where I'd ever want to pay more than zero. Even if the guy casting it paid zero, I'd still pay zero and let him be down a card.


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 10:23 am 

Joined: 2011-May-09 10:26 am
Age: Wyvern
I agree with those saying they'll never pay mana for this. One can assume that if you're running this, you have ways to abuse it. Why should we help you? If you're not running anything that takes advantage of the "symmetrical" effect, then you have a bad deck or at least a worthless card.

I think "any player who paid at least 1 for this spell puts X tokens into play" or some such would have made this much, much better.


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 10:48 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Soupboy wrote:
I agree with those saying they'll never pay mana for this.


Well, there are always exceptions... As long as the caster tapped out, there's lots of situations where I'd pay. For example, if I had an Elesh Norn/Insurrection/Overrun Effect/etc in MY hand. Even a wrath effect... Attack the caster with a bunch of tokens... If they block, their trick next turn is neutered. If they don't, I get some free damage and then cast the WoG.
If they caster left mana open though, then yes, they have a trick up there sleeve and I'm prolly not helping them. Even then though, if another player is about to win otherwise? I may as well help them kill that player, and hope they don't have enough tricks to kill me too.

Note that I'd NEVER play this card in my deck... Everyone knows me well enough that they'd never help me by paying for it unless it would win THEM the game.


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 12:02 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jun-03 9:15 am
Age: Hatchling
Location: Massachusetts
I'll just post what yawg07 messaged:

I like how it adds what everyone pays haha
I like it with infy mana and Suture Priest
Here you go, have 1000000
oh, you died xD


This will make me *hate* Phelddagrif decks more.


Last edited by Dilettante on 2011-Jun-03 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 12:24 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
Soupboy wrote:
I agree with those saying they'll never pay mana for this.


Well, there are always exceptions... As long as the caster tapped out, there's lots of situations where I'd pay. For example, if I had an Elesh Norn/Insurrection/Overrun Effect/etc in MY hand. Even a wrath effect... Attack the caster with a bunch of tokens... If they block, their trick next turn is neutered. If they don't, I get some free damage and then cast the WoG.
If they caster left mana open though, then yes, they have a trick up there sleeve and I'm prolly not helping them. Even then though, if another player is about to win otherwise? I may as well help them kill that player, and hope they don't have enough tricks to kill me too.

Note that I'd NEVER play this card in my deck... Everyone knows me well enough that they'd never help me by paying for it unless it would win THEM the game.

That still seems iffy, though. In order to abuse this when you're the one casting it, you'd have to have a Norn or some other Anthem effect (or Urabrask) in play, in which case I somehow doubt anyone else is going to chip in. If you have Insurrection in hand and you cast this, you're going to have to leave a lot of mana up, which means you either need to have a ton of mana, or a teammate willing to cover you, because I'm pretty sure anyone else with half a brain will notice that (a) you've got a lot of red mana you're not tapping and (b) for a big, potentially splashy token generator, you sure didn't pay very much mana.

And anyway, a lot of what you're suggesting is better accomplished with your own Decree of Justice. In fact, this card is so much worse than Decree of Justice it actually hurts. Short of a Prosperity everyone can chip into, I don't see what effect you could make for this mechanic that wouldn't be horrible (i.e., that people would actually want to pay for, as opposed to mooching off of).


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 12:46 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-03 10:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Aggro_zombies wrote:

And anyway, a lot of what you're suggesting is better accomplished with your own Decree of Justice. In fact, this card is so much worse than Decree of Justice it actually hurts. Short of a Prosperity everyone can chip into, I don't see what effect you could make for this mechanic that wouldn't be horrible (i.e., that people would actually want to pay for, as opposed to mooching off of).


Challenge Accepted!

Pooled Wisdom U
Sorcery
Join Forces-- Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of mana. Each player draws X cards, where X is the total amount of mana paid this way.

Suicide Pact BBB
Sorcery
Join Forces-- Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of mana. Each player chooses X creatures he or she controls and sacrifices the rest, where X is the total amount of mana paid this way.

Arms Race RR
Sorcery
Join Forces-- Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of mana. Then choose one: Arms Race deals X damage to all creatures; or Arms Race deals X damage to all players, where X is the total amount of mana paid this way.

Shared Burden GG
Sorcery
Join Forces-- Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of mana. Each player puts X +1/+1 counters distributed as he/she chooses on any number of creatures he/she controls, where X is the total amount of mana paid this way.

As usual, the "designed in 5 minutes" disclaimer applies here... But this is by way of saying that I don't think Join Forces is an inherently flawed mechanic. (Though possibly not at its best in the particular instance we have.)

ETA: How in the WORLD is "Shared Burden" not an actual card yet? I'll take "Obvious English-language idioms" for 200, Alex.


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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 1:10 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
herodotusjr wrote:
Challenge Accepted!

Pooled Wisdom U
Sorcery
Join Forces-- Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of mana. Each player draws X cards, where X is the total amount of mana paid this way.

Janky, but not unreasonable. Presumably you only chip in if you benefit from cards in hand, have counters and suspect a trap, an so on.

herodotusjr wrote:
Suicide Pact BBB
Sorcery
Join Forces-- Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of mana. Each player chooses X creatures he or she controls and sacrifices the rest, where X is the total amount of mana paid this way.

Would still not pay. If no one pays, it's a Wrath. If someone pays, everyone keeps their best creature(s). I would rather clean the board unless I'm in a dominant position, in which case this card either taps me out or I'm tapped out and everyone else pays zero. Seems bad.

EDIT: This card would be better if it were, "sacrifice creatures equal to the amount of mana paid" since then you'd at least have some incentive to pay if you're behind.

herodotusjr wrote:
Arms Race RR
Sorcery
Join Forces-- Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of mana. Then choose one: Arms Race deals X damage to all creatures; or Arms Race deals X damage to all players, where X is the total amount of mana paid this way.

I would also pay zero here. If you contribute, there's a risk the spell's controller will choose players unless he's about to die or everyone else drums up enough mana to kill him if he chooses that option. If someone wants a janky Pyroclasm, that's fine, but I'm certainly not contributing to my own demise.

herodotusjr wrote:
Shared Burden GG
Sorcery
Join Forces-- Starting with you, each player may pay any amount of mana. Each player puts X +1/+1 counters distributed as he/she chooses on any number of creatures he/she controls, where X is the total amount of mana paid this way.

Yeah, still not seeing a reason to not leech here. Why do I want to buff my opponents' guys?

herodotusjr wrote:
As usual, the "designed in 5 minutes" disclaimer applies here... But this is by way of saying that I don't think Join Forces is an inherently flawed mechanic. (Though possibly not at its best in the particular instance we have.)

It's inherently flawed in the same way that Howling Mine and its ilk are inherently flawed - your opponents benefit first. And since there's more of them than you, any amount of mana you pay into the spell ends up contributing far more to hurting you than helping. For example, if someone casts your "Pooled Wisdom" above in a four-player game, every 1 I pay nets me one card and my opponents a combined three cards. That means I can pay 1 to face a full turn cycle's worth of fresh cards now, which hardly seems worth it unless I'm about to win and just want the style points. Any setup you could create to make these one-sided will either be obvious, or one of those, "Burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me" kind of things.


Last edited by Aggro_zombies on 2011-Jun-03 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: June 3rd Preview (3/8): Alliance of Arms - Join Forces
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-03 1:21 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-01 10:21 am
Age: Drake
Location: Montreal, QC
How about Join Forces on a creature? That'd be cool.


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