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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-28 10:20 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Wayne Viktorius wrote:
What determines your age in this forum? Is it posts or time as a member?


Neither.

Your age is determined by how factual truthfully and valid your arguments and comments are.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-29 7:10 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-04 2:20 pm
Age: Dragon
Joz wrote:
Wayne Viktorius wrote:
What determines your age in this forum? Is it posts or time as a member?


Neither.

Your age is determined by how factual truthfully and valid your arguments and comments are.


Who decides that?


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-29 7:41 am 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Wayne Viktorius wrote:
Joz wrote:
Your age is determined by how factual truthfully and valid your arguments and comments are.

Who decides that?

Joz is trolling. It's determined by post count.

_________________
My Commander decks:
Damia, Sage of Stone - Non-obnoxious goodstuff
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Tokens, recursion, and lifegain
Vorel of the Hull Clade - Abusing counters for fun and profit


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-29 9:14 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-04 2:20 pm
Age: Dragon
Haha I thought so. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-07 6:28 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Jun-07 6:17 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Redmond, WA
Rules.... So, are the EDH "rules" just guidelines?

House rules are irrelevant since they become defacto rules for that "house" by definition. Otherwise do we really have to negotiate every "EDH" rule or are some sacrosanct.

The FAQ candidate is this: which rules of EDH listed on this site are requirements and which are guidelines?

Example: Mr. Suitcase brings 120 card EDH deck chocked full of tutors. E.g., "kitchen sink included"

So, then what happens?

a) "Hey Mr. Suitcase the EDH rules on this site say your deck has to be 100 cards."
b) "Hey, like the WoTC rules sheet mentions 'Commander' and says 100 card deck size... Oh and on the 'official' EDH site it says 100 too...'
c) "Hmm well we don't know -- it's a casual format but we don't have house rules.. Do we need house rules? Shall we uh... take it outside?..."
d) "Sounds like a good idea, I think I'll bend the rules too and add another Sol Ring and perhaps a 2nd Underground Sea just because this is a casual format and no rule says I cannot because no rule says there are actually rules to this format.. Just guidelines"

Oh.. hmm..

Rules or guidelines. Casual format with rules or Casual format with guidelines. What is the rock bottom ruleset that every EDH variant follows?

Or is it just... "Hey, since this game we're playing right now is not sanctioned, there are technically no rules."

I really do not know what to do ... FAQ master, help us.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-15 7:08 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-02 10:45 am
Age: Drake
suitcase wrote:
Rules.... So, are the EDH "rules" just guidelines?

House rules are irrelevant since they become defacto rules for that "house" by definition. Otherwise do we really have to negotiate every "EDH" rule or are some sacrosanct.

The FAQ candidate is this: which rules of EDH listed on this site are requirements and which are guidelines?

Example: Mr. Suitcase brings 120 card EDH deck chocked full of tutors. E.g., "kitchen sink included"

So, then what happens?

a) "Hey Mr. Suitcase the EDH rules on this site say your deck has to be 100 cards."
b) "Hey, like the WoTC rules sheet mentions 'Commander' and says 100 card deck size... Oh and on the 'official' EDH site it says 100 too...'
c) "Hmm well we don't know -- it's a casual format but we don't have house rules.. Do we need house rules? Shall we uh... take it outside?..."
d) "Sounds like a good idea, I think I'll bend the rules too and add another Sol Ring and perhaps a 2nd Underground Sea just because this is a casual format and no rule says I cannot because no rule says there are actually rules to this format.. Just guidelines"

Oh.. hmm..

Rules or guidelines. Casual format with rules or Casual format with guidelines. What is the rock bottom ruleset that every EDH variant follows?

Or is it just... "Hey, since this game we're playing right now is not sanctioned, there are technically no rules."

I really do not know what to do ... FAQ master, help us.

The only real "guideline" rules are those of the banned list. Any and all rules about generals, deck size, singleton, and life totals are set in. You could make house rule exceptions for the banned list, or make small adjustments for alternate MTG styles (for example, Archenemy or Planechase)

_________________
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"The world would not be near the same if people like you and me didn't come up with ideas that seemed stupid at first and then went through with them"- one of my epic friends.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Jun-15 5:59 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Jun-07 6:17 pm
Age: Wyvern
Location: Redmond, WA
That sounds reasonable.

The debate has continued among the local group.

There's a set of players here who don't really give a shit.

Then there's a set of players who do care, but they are in the minority.

The argument against rules being rules - -the argument that rules are guidelines goes like this:

"The game goes through changes during the play. .There are times when the board is in X's favor
and then something happens and Y's in good position, and so on. So, the impact of an oversized library is minimal at best because it doesn't actually affect the course of the game."

The argument for rules being rules -- the argument that rules are not guidelines goes like this:

"The game may go through changes and different players get board advantage during the game, but the kinds of cards in EDH decks that are often seen are searching libraries for THE card among a few cards which by design is MEANT to be tutored for accelerated advantage on the board. That is the reason for searching the library for a card -- to get it out when it would normally take random chance to get it out. And, since the library is so much bigger, the toolbox is therefore bigger."

Remarkably, the argument against rules being rules -- the argument for rules being just guidelines is winning.

All the "guideline" players have to say to make the argument moot is "it's a casual format."

I wish I didn't care about this; it would eliminate a sore spot of debating the spirit of the game. The spirit-of-the-game argument goes like "It's all about social interaction first and foremost."

However, why do we even document 100-card deck size "rules" if they are not rules?
Why does WoTC document 100-card deck size "rules" in their rules if they are not rules?

I'd love if one of the EDH Rules Comittee folks would chime in. Or even a DCI judge for their perspective.

In a sanctioned event, I don't think any of us really argue against the rules as printed. But we play sanctioned EDH as much as we play power-9 cards.

The spirit-of-the-game argument could say:

Is 120 card decls worse than letting in banned cards? Which "rule" is higher than any other -- hint, I don't think there is. But of course with this set of characters, it depends.

Anyway... you get the idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-24 8:20 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Genomancer wrote:
Long story short, the location of a General is known to all players at any time no matter which zone it's in, or whether it's face down/face up. That includes being in the library or face-down from something like Tuck+Grimoire Thief, and it means a player has the option to Command-zone their General instead of it being exiled face down.

This behavior dovetails, as mentioned, with the common approach of putting a general in a unique sleeve. And while it's unique for a card's position to remain known across SBA checks, there are some related precedents in the CR where a card's location remains known in the library during the resolution of a spell (extremely arcane precedent)

So what changes does this mandate for players? Not many... it only comes up in corner case scenarios. The only trick is shuffling. Shuffling is considered an atomic action in magic... it's indivisible and the player is not aware (technically) of any intermediate states. The deck goes from unshuffled, to shuffled, and the position of every card is randomized. So knowledge of the General's starting position shouldn't have any impact on the shuffling process. To implement that, a player shuffling his or her General into a deck in a different sleeve should take some steps to make sure he/she doesn't know where the General is going to end up. The easiest way to do so is usually a "blind cut" or two.

(If the General is in an identical sleeve, there are other minor steps players can take to make sure it doesn't get "lost in exile")

So, long story short:

* Generalness is more like a status than a characteristic, however we just call it a 'property' to match player intuition.
* The location and identity of a General is known to all players at all times, no matter what its status/effects/location.
* It's only relevant in corner cases, but this is the implementation which causes the least rules headaches.

G


I take this post to mean that you can (and probably should) play your general in a different sleeve, and that when it's shuffled into your library, everyone should know where in your library it ended up. Could this be clearly specified in the rules? Many people don't believe me about this and "One of the rules committee said it in a forum post that I can't easily search for." is not very persuasive.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-25 9:45 am 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
NMS wrote:
I take this post to mean that you can (and probably should) play your general in a different sleeve, and that when it's shuffled into your library, everyone should know where in your library it ended up. Could this be clearly specified in the rules? Many people don't believe me about this and "One of the rules committee said it in a forum post that I can't easily search for." is not very persuasive.

No, you shouldn't.* Knowing that your commander is in your library doesn't mean that you should know where in the library it is.

*) Putting your commander in a different sleeve prevents you from accidentally shuffling it back into your deck after the game, but if you're told to shuffle it, you should change the sleeve.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-25 10:10 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Malekoda wrote:
NMS wrote:
I take this post to mean that you can (and probably should) play your general in a different sleeve, and that when it's shuffled into your library, everyone should know where in your library it ended up. Could this be clearly specified in the rules? Many people don't believe me about this and "One of the rules committee said it in a forum post that I can't easily search for." is not very persuasive.

No, you shouldn't.* Knowing that your commander is in your library doesn't mean that you should know where in the library it is.

*) Putting your commander in a different sleeve prevents you from accidentally shuffling it back into your deck after the game, but if you're told to shuffle it, you should change the sleeve.



Or have a "proxy" in a sleeve that you can shuffle in (MTG cards inserted backwards work fine.)


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-25 12:24 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
Malekoda wrote:
NMS wrote:
I take this post to mean that you can (and probably should) play your general in a different sleeve, and that when it's shuffled into your library, everyone should know where in your library it ended up.

No, you shouldn't. Knowing that your commander is in your library doesn't mean that you should know where in the library it is.

Actually, in this case, that is what Genomancer means. Or more accurately, you (and all players) should know whether the 43rd card from the top of your library is your General or not. This is because Generalness is a known property of the card in all zones regardless of card state (tapped/untapped, face-down, etc.) or rules text (for example if your The Mimeoplasm is a copy of another creature, it's still your General).

Of course, this ruling has been subsequently contradicted by Sheldon, saying that he and Toby feel essentially what you described: if your General is in your hand or library nobody should be able to know which card it is unless they are allowed to look at it. So the Rules Committee really ought to clarify their position on this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-25 2:43 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Joz wrote:
Malekoda wrote:
Putting your commander in a different sleeve prevents you from accidentally shuffling it back into your deck after the game, but if you're told to shuffle it, you should change the sleeve.
Or have a "proxy" in a sleeve that you can shuffle in (MTG cards inserted backwards work fine.)
My favored method is to pick up a pack of the KMC Character Guard sleeves - they're larger sleeves that fit over normal sized sleeves (and have some spiffy scroll work on them). Keep your commander in the same sleeves as the rest of your deck, but put a character guard sleeve over it. If you need to shuffle it in or put it in your hand, take off the outer sleeve and you're good to go.

The character guard sleeves are a bit expensive, but split it with a couple of friends and each take just part of a pack and it's not that bad of a price.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2012-Oct-29 1:31 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
Or, heaven forbid, take the 20 seconds to look through your deck after a game and get him or her out.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2013-Jan-05 5:03 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Ukkmaster wrote:
Or, heaven forbid, take the 20 seconds to look through your deck after a game and get him or her out.

Hahaha this.

And even if you forget and its like turn 2, no one is gonna get mad if you play your land and pass with a "Go ahead, I'm gonna go get Mayael in the meantime. I left her in the deck hahaha"
Or the "Rampant Growth, I'm gonna grab Mayael out while I'm in here" play


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