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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 8:16 pm 
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The same Diogenes who was basically the original troll, who went around pissing people off because he thought it proved a point? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 8:40 pm 
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Quote:
I'm just going to have to rely on what good 'ol Diogenes of Sinope said about trying to persuade a person...
Aw, geez. This guy is smart. I yield!

*flees*

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-17 8:45 pm 
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Genomancer wrote:
The same Diogenes who was basically the original troll, who went around pissing people off because he thought it proved a point? :roll:


Original Cynic :D



Fugu, I'm not trying to talk/start shit. However, if I make myself explicitly clear and break things down but the person still cannot understand...

(this has no bearing on whether or not you agree with me)

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-18 6:52 pm 
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Majus wrote:
I served in the military. Rank and grade are nothing as you describe them in your analogy with the exception of the chain of command & rank

Well, my experience/knowledge is based on my time in the Civil Air Patrol, not the military proper, so I'll concede that point to you, but the bit about chain of command still holds.
Majus wrote:
Beyond the debate, the question still goes unanswered. Why is a player allowed to play more than one legendary creature?

The answer is very simple - because the rules don't say you can't.
If you need flavor justifications, you can see legendary creatures included in the deck that aren't the general as Lieutenants or maybe just the general's friends/allies, but the fact that the general is the general makes it more special than any of the other legendary creatures anyways, so I'm not sure why you feel other legends being in the deck somehow detracts from the general.

To use the Norin example, you could do the same crap (play a 5-color general but not need/want/use it) with a combo or strategy that didn't involve a legendary creature, and no one would cry foul any harder. Some people (myself included) think your general should have something to do with the way your deck works, and so would be mildly annoyed at "Oh I just have Progenitus so I can play 5 color goodstuff and win with the widest possible variety of quick combos."

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-20 8:40 am 
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Majus wrote:
Carthain, when I initially read your post I understood the stance you were taking. You meant to say that because I would want to play those other cards, but still base my deck around Norin, I would have to play a different (multi-colored) general. You then use my suggestion as a rubric to say that if such a restriction was imposed, it would detract from the format AND certain kinds of builds/decks/etc (i.e. a multi-colored CiP-Bounce deck with Norin as the main [non-general] creature).

Actually no, I didn't say it would detract from certain kinds of decks.

I said that with your restriction, the only place you could use Norin in is in a mono-red deck. And, as you did a quick check, there isn't much in mono-red to use him with. Because of this, Norin would never be played - there are better mono-red generals, and not enough to synergize with what Norin does. Because of that - Norin would never be played. There wouldn't be anywhere for him to be played.

Contrast to currently, Norin can be played in decks where he is not the general - so Norin is much more likely to see play somewhere. This shows that your restriction would in essence reduce the card pool that people have to choose from - First in that they can't use a legendary creature except for their general; and Second in that some legendary creatures would never be played as they just don't work well as generals. (Hakkon is another example).

So, your seeming desire to have only one legendary creature in a deck would actually reduce the amount of cards available for people to play with, and reduce the number of interactions available for people to put into their decks. For example, you would never be able to play with Norin and Aura Shards together.

So now, if you have people in your area asking - you can give them a reason why it is better this way.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-28 10:00 pm 
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Rules FAQs: What happens to your stuff when someone leaves the game.
A lot of folks don't know that, for example, when the owner of an Oblivion RIng is killed, what's under the ring doesn't come back - this has caused at least one game to degenerate into a depressing argument in my group.

Similarly, there are apparently two different types of 'steal' effects, which apparently means that if you steal two of my creatures, one with a Keiga and one with a Vedalken Shackles, I'll get one of them back when die but the other will be exiled, or something like that. I figure if I don't know the difference, most other players don't either, and certainly not the newbies.

Also, is there a searchable rules database app on the iPhone?

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-29 8:52 am 

Joined: 2009-May-08 6:45 am
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Scenario 1) If it was in play and then got stolen --shackles/keiga/mind control-- then player B gets it back.
Scenario 2) If it came into play under someones control other than the owners -- bribery/gather specimens/debtors' knell-- then it gets exiled.

The oblivion ring example is a little trickier. Initially you'd think the owner of the ring'd card would get it back. But if the owner of the ring leaves the game, the ring doesn't exist any more, therefore, the leaves the battlefield trigger can never trigger.

edit: Actually, is the o-ring ruling correct? I seem to recall Blood Tyrant triggering in an MTGO duel when someone loses. Or is that just the coding on MTGO?

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Nov-29 9:09 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-08 9:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MTGO gets really really goofy in multiplayer when one player dies. Part of it is persistent bugs that still haven't been fixed. MP really gets short shrift online even though it has a thousand or more active players.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-01 10:25 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
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Location: Calgary
defenestrator wrote:
Also, is there a searchable rules database app on the iPhone?

http://www.bluewizard.net/Bluewizards_Tower/Magic_Judge_Resources.html

Not quite what you asked for but here's a resource. This guy ports the various official documents to PDA document formats. So it's not quite the app you want but it's still access to an offline copy of Oracle, the Comp Rules, Tournament Rules, penalty info, etc.

For the iPhone I think your best bet is the EPub format. iBooks can read them. Just download the .epub files and drag them onto the iPhone in iTunes.

Once they're on the iPhone make sure to open each file and let the device index the file. It takes a few minutes to crawl through, say, Oracle-Vintage but the search feature is much faster afterward.

If you have Internet access then the Gatherer web itself is still probably your best bet. For card lookups it's usually faster to just use Safari than it is to use iBooks.

For rules lookups you can try Gatherer for rulings but I'm not a big fan of Gatherer for that function. I'd try the MTGRULES-L archive, again, if you have Internet access.

Just having the Comp Rules on a device is handy. The Multiplayer rules are in there.

Edit: Just tried Yawgatog's Hyperlinked Comp Rules in Safari on a 4g iPod Touch. A bit slow to load / navigate (as expected) but it is fully functional. So there's another option if you have Internet access.

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-08 10:51 am 
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I think there should be a section describing the list of mechanics greatly affected by the format.

Some mechanics are rendered nearly useless like Grandeur and search your library for copies of cards such as Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and Pack Hunt. Pack Hunt can use Llanowar Empath tokens (I think), but it seems nearly useless.

Commanders that shuffle into a deck as a replacement effect on going to the graveyard. Also if it hasn't been mentioned, how replacement affects apply to ones Commander's replacement graveyard/command zone effect.
------------------------------------
Also question, if two players have the same commander wouldn't it make sense that a player could lose due to 21 cumulative points between the two since only one could be out at a time anyhow?
------------------------------------
Why not make a Commander game starting guide such as.
At the beginning of the game give each player places a Legendary Creature in their command zone which shares all colors and mana symbols as their Deck...
------------------------------------
EDIT: I moved this idea to http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6767.

Actually thinking more, why not leverage what players already know about command zones, Emblems. Something like: Before the start of the game (including shuffling) each player creates an Emblem named "Commander Emblem" which reads,
Imprint - When this enters the Command Zone search your deck and select a creature which shares all colors and mana symbols as your Library, place it in the Command Zone, if you can't you lose the game. If the imprinted card is in your command zone you may play it as if it were in your hand. Whenever the imprinted creature is played from your command zone place a counter on Commander Emblem. The imprinted creature costs 2 additional mana to play for each command counter on Commander Emblem. If the imprinted creature would be placed into the graveyard or exiled it may instead be placed in its owner's Command Zone. If the imprinted creature card has dealt (including whilst face down) more than 21 points of combat damage to an opponent he or she loses the game. Mana in your manapool which is not a mana symbol (excluding reminder text) on the imprinted card is colorless.


---------------------------------------------------------
A lot of weird rules could be solved by just making playing the commander a copy of the Imprinted card. The legend rule would negate the player making multiple copies. This would impact returning it to your hand and deck and choosing for it to stay in the graveyard and those would have to be thought about.

Anyhow just something to think about.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-10 8:04 am 
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Lelek wrote:
Some mechanics are rendered nearly useless like Grandeur and search your library for copies of cards such as Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and Pack Hunt.

Seconded, but I can see that these mechanics are just casualties of the format. The format is popular enough and enjoyable that I don't see the one-of rule changing. Or perhaps if it does, possibly being the four-of rule and only for generals with grandeur or Mishra.

Side-note, I'm going to totally pick up a copy of Pack Hunt for my Savra, Queen of the Golgari/Relentless Rats deck now :)

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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-11 8:20 am 
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Superstrength79 wrote:
Lelek wrote:
Some mechanics are rendered nearly useless like Grandeur and search your library for copies of cards such as Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and Pack Hunt.

Seconded, but I can see that these mechanics are just casualties of the format. The format is popular enough and enjoyable that I don't see the one-of rule changing. Or perhaps if it does, possibly being the four-of rule and only for generals with grandeur or Mishra.

Side-note, I'm going to totally pick up a copy of Pack Hunt for my Savra, Queen of the Golgari/Relentless Rats deck now :)


I'm not suggesting getting rid of one-of rule (aka Singleton) I am suggesting a Q&A in a FAQ detailing the most affected mechanisms. It would look like (Note these answers aren't meant to be the full inclusive answer that would be included in the FAQs):

Question: What cards and abilities are most negatively affected by the Commander's rules?
Answer: Grandeur and search your library for copies of cards such as Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and Pack Hunt. Cards that rely on multiples in your deck to reach full potency like Kindle or Muscle Burst. Cards that exile creatures, when used against commanders are less effective than they otherwise would be.

Question: What cards and abilities are most positively affected by Commander's rules?
Answer: Cards that otherwise would penalize having multiple in a deck such as Candles of Leng or Legendary creatures. Cards that reference a static life number such as Serra Ascendant. Cards that clone creatures (such as clone) can kill commanders using the legend rules making them assured to be affective. Cards and abilities that support a single creature attacking, such as the ability "exalted" takes new context with the Commander Damage rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-11 8:41 am 
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Lelek wrote:
I'm not suggesting getting rid of one-of rule (aka Singleton) I am suggesting a Q&A in a FAQ detailing the most affected mechanisms. It would look like (Note these answers aren't meant to be the full inclusive answer that would be included in the FAQs):

Question: What cards and abilities are most negatively affected by the Commander's rules?
Answer: Grandeur and search your library for copies of cards such as Mishra, Artificer Prodigy and Pack Hunt. Cards that rely on multiples in your deck to reach full potency like Kindle or Muscle Burst. Cards that exile creatures, when used against commanders are less effective than they otherwise would be.

Question: What cards and abilities are most positively affected by Commander's rules?
Answer: Cards that otherwise would penalize having multiple in a deck such as Candles of Leng or Legendary creatures. Cards that reference a static life number such as Serra Ascendant. Cards that clone creatures (such as clone) can kill commanders using the legend rules making them assured to be affective. Cards and abilities that support a single creature attacking, such as the ability "exalted" takes new context with the Commander Damage rule.


The problem with that - is that the FAQ would become out of date when more abilities are added. This thread has been here for a while, with no FAQ to appear (that I've seen - if I'm wrong, someone please show the blind man where it is.) So I don't see how a question on something that is fairly easy to figure out yourself would be beneficial.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-11 9:38 am 
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Carthain wrote:
The problem with that - is that the FAQ would become out of date when more abilities are added. This thread has been here for a while, with no FAQ to appear (that I've seen - if I'm wrong, someone please show the blind man where it is.) So I don't see how a question on something that is fairly easy to figure out yourself would be beneficial.


Abilities are announced 3 times a year for the most part. And most of what I mentioned has been in magic a long time. I don't see it getting quickly outdated.

A lot of magic players wouldn't know about the clone trick. I feel if you make a alternate rule set you should at least describe what cards are impacted by the rule design choices, like when drug companies list side effects.


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 Post subject: Re: Call for FAQs
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-11 9:58 am 
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Lelek wrote:
A lot of magic players wouldn't know about the clone trick. I feel if you make a alternate rule set you should at least describe what cards are impacted by the rule design choices, like when drug companies list side effects.

But what is wrong with learning about it the way you learned about it? It's a type 2 rare, legendary creatures are in standard as well - why should a format specific faq teach them about this 'trick'?

And most of the stuff you said should be self evident if you stop to think about it, or easily picked up when it happens in a game.

Plus, I can't say I've ever heard people asking what abilities or types of cards are affected the most by the rules before - so I don't see it being a frequently asked question.


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