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 Post subject: Banned List discussion
AgePosted: 2006-May-18 6:11 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Calgary, AB, CA
The Official EDH Banned list is as follows:

Code:
Ante cards
Dexterity cards

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Biorhythm
Crucible of Worlds
Library of Alexandria
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Panoptic Mirror
Shahrazad
Sway of the Stars
Test of Endurance
Time Walk
Upheaval
Worldgorger Dragon


(from Dream Wizards' EDH page)

The following cards are curently under consideration for addition (in the "Sentry Box league")

Code:
Beacon of Immortality
Demonic Tutor
Necropotence
Survival of the Fittest
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth's Bargain


No cards are currently under consideration for removal.

You can discuss your opinions here. Remember, the goal is to keep the format interesting and non-degenate- but cards need to be more than just "really good" to be added to the list.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2006-May-21 1:54 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Quote:
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Survival of the Fittest
Necropotence


I agree with all three of these. I know Bargain has been discussed for banning among pro tour circles, based on the huge starting life total. I'm hoping we don't have to go into the same never-ending-debate that Necro originally suffered ("But it's a staple black card and it's not that powerful and you have to wait till the end of your turn!")

Survival is substantially more abuseable in EDH than several of the cards banned for "power level" reasons... I play with it, but the faster it goes, the better.

Quote:
Beacon of Immortality
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor


These three all fall into the powerful-but-not-absurd catagory in my mind. Both tutors are clearly over the power curve, but so are many other cards in EDH... it is a Vintage-based format. Beacon of Immortality nets a massive life swing in EDH, but usually less than Congregate, and the shuffle-back effect decreased in a 100 card deck.

That, and any card which increases the potency of general kills is cool.

G


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AgePosted: 2006-May-23 3:13 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-23 3:11 pm
Age: Drake
Sheldon gave his okay at one point for Bargain to get the axe.


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 Post subject: Re: Banned List discussion
AgePosted: 2006-May-23 6:58 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-10 5:49 pm
Age: Hatchling
Location: Calgary
One downside of Survival of the Fittest is the time aspect - it can take ages to tutor multiple times through a 100 card singleton deck especially if you don't already know what you're looking for.

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My Generals: Razia Boros Archangel; Sliver Queen


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 Post subject: Sorry for the long post
AgePosted: 2006-May-24 7:13 pm 

Joined: 2006-May-24 5:59 pm
Age: Egg
I was just wondering how most other groups play this format. My group has been playing a very similar format since before EDH's inception (100 card Highlander, with no generals) so I have seen (and built) a large number of EDH-like decks.
My group has a number of serious players with very extensive collections. No one owns Power (outside of Lib Alex) but Mana Drain and other like cards see common play. Given our general power level, and how easily serious threats are dispatched, I look at a number of the cards on the banned list and I wonder how often these games are played with 4+ people and how often people are just playing duels.
In my multiplayer groups' 10 year existence we have had to ban exactly one card: Congregate. And that was before False Cure and Flames of the Blood Hand were printed. We'll probably have a discussion about unbanning it at some point now that spoilers exist.
When I see cards like Crucible of Worlds and Balance on the list it makes me scratch my head in puzzlement. I had an infinite Crucible deck once at our multiplayer table. I took down 4 other players on turn 4. The next time I played it, all 5 other players at the table stopped what they were doing and ganged-up to eliminate me. I never untapped with a non-land permanent until I was dead (somewhere around turn 6.) I got the point.
What I'm trying to say is, most multi-player metagames are inherently self-correcting. Dangerous cards are identified and their bearers are dispatched quickly so the rest of the group can get on with the game.
I suppose it's theoretically possible for an undisruptable guaranteed combo but I think the person who insisted on playing it every game would quickly find it increasingly difficult to find a game to play it in (i.e. the Metagame takes care of banning things on its own.)
In the duel environment there are certainly cards that are unbalancingly powerful given the limitations of the Highlander format. And I can also understand banning cards like Survival of the Fittest because it's boring for 5 people to sit around while one guy sifts through his deck for 5 minutes per turn. But I don't think a card exists that is powerful enough to allow you to dominate 4+ other players who are all focused on killing you.

Are these cards on the banned list because they are "overpowered" in duels? Quite possibly.
Are these cards on the banned list because they are "overpowered" in multiplayer? I don't believe it.

Or maybe I'm just naive...

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I wept because I had no shoes, then I met a man who had no feet.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2006-May-25 10:42 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
I used to play Hundred Card Highlander at UW, before I found out about EDH, and have always enjoyed the limitations on reliability. EDH takes this one step further, by introducing another requirement on deckbuilding to emphasize creativity and interaction. IMO, the purpose of the EDH rules is so that you can try your best to build a competetive deck, without resorting to self-limitation, and won't be able to build an overpowered deck for a casual environment. This allows newer players to compete with experienced players without limitation or expectation of massive commitment to the format.

Quote:
Dangerous cards are identified and their bearers are dispatched quickly so the rest of the group can get on with the game.


While our group sometime plays chaos multiplayer, we also use EDH decks to play other multiplayer formats such as 2vs2, 3vs3, 2HG, Pentagram and Emperor; I'd highly encourage other groups to try it. These formats have a number of benefits, not the least of which is that they actively prevent people from ganging up on the good players. The 'downside' is that it loses this 'autocorrective' balance.

The existance of answers to a card shouldn't be the determining factor in whether that card is legal.. that efficacy of that philosophy has been disproved many times in other formats, and is even more true in a highlander format. It requires people to overcommit to preventing a particular plan/card/strategy, which limits their own creativity and opportunity... and it will still often fail because of the size of the decks.

(Yes, it's possible to just remove the problem by killing the offender using whatever you have available, as r0nny mentioned, but that returns to the issue of ganging up.. which is reasonable, but not enjoyable).

I'd much rather that cards which are overpowered in the format (Balance is likely the worst possible offender in a multiplayer environment ) are just removed from the format, than require people to politic and self-police.

(Obviously there are limits to this, and we'll need to find a balance... I certainly don't want to see an environment like online casual where Land-D, Counterspells, Discard and any form of disruption are frowned upon :P... Armageddon is a pain in the ass, but it's part of the game to be sure)

I'm sure different people have differing opinions on the goals and purpose of the EDH rules.. I'm curious to see what other people are looking for in the format. Perhaps it would be wise to debate and hash out some kind of "Charter" which lays out the purpose for the EDH rules/what they aim to achieve.. so that we can use those as a base/axioms when debating changes to the rules. (5-color magic desperately needs such a thing, as it suffers from horribly confused aims).

G


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2006-May-25 11:11 am 

Joined: 2006-May-24 9:26 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Owings, Maryland
Genomancer wrote:
Perhaps it would be wise to debate and hash out some kind of "Charter" which lays out the purpose for the EDH rules/what they aim to achieve..


This is a rather good idea IMO. I'd prefer not to see the format to become so "defined" that it stops being fun; however, laying out a couple of guiding principles would be nice. Especially if there do become questions in the future about how to handle certain things (such as the Memnarch/DoA/Bosh issue; which may become more important if other Legendary Creatures are printed with off color abilities).

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"It's the wood that should fear your hand, not the other way around. No wonder you can't do it, you acquiesce to defeat before you even begin."


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry for the long post
AgePosted: 2006-May-25 7:26 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Calgary, AB, CA
r0nnybaby wrote:
Are these cards on the banned list because they are "overpowered" in duels? Quite possibly.
Are these cards on the banned list because they are "overpowered" in multiplayer? I don't believe it.

Or maybe I'm just naive...


I've logged a LOT of casual games, so I can comment here. BTW, in our casual games, we've never banned a single card, other than having players adhere to DCI deck construction rules (e.g. no 4x Tolarian Academy)

Aside from its larger emphasis on fun, and desire to allow newer players to make a competitve deck with small card collections, there's an important distinction with EDH vs. other multiplayer formats due to the larger starting life total.

This means that games last much longer, and so:
  • Players have more time to set up combos.
  • It takes longer to eliminate a player if the rest of the players wish it so.
  • Players will be much more unhappy if a 90-minute game- that has seen a lot of interesting pulling and pushing- suddently ends in some unbeatable combo, as opposed to a 10-minute game.


As a result, some cards will be much more powerful than others. No one (else) likes resolving a Balance that takes everyone down to 2 lands, no creatures and no cards. And yes, some should be banned. Which ones? Well, that's up for discussion...

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 Post subject: Re: Sorry for the long post
AgePosted: 2006-May-29 11:27 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
r0nnybaby wrote:
When I see cards like Crucible of Worlds and Balance on the list it makes me scratch my head in puzzlement. I had an infinite Crucible deck once at our multiplayer table. I took down 4 other players on turn 4. The next time I played it, all 5 other players at the table stopped what they were doing and ganged-up to eliminate me.


You have to understand that one of the places in which EDH is played (and where the banned list hails from) is the Pro Tour, which is not a self-regulating group, and is more focussed on fun and interesting. It's about playing big spells and having crazy (non-combo) turns, such as the one described in Sheldon's Feature Friday.

Yes, if you play an infinite-Crucible deck, your play group will eventually gang up and just kill you to send the message. How is it not better to send the message proactively?


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 Post subject: Re: Sorry for the long post
AgePosted: 2006-May-30 7:30 am 

Joined: 2006-May-24 9:26 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Owings, Maryland
Right now, the cards on the "Banned" list represent cards that usually make games less fun and interesting, or provide way too much "swing" in the game once they've resolved. Either that, or they are just really problematic (Biorhythym is really an "I win" card when timed properly; which is why it is banned) in this format more than others. I wouldn't want to see too much more added to the list that exists, if only because then we start getting into a lot of nitpicking over what the appropriate power level is. I think most of the biggest offenders have been dealt with, and the watch list is good for now. Perhaps PT Charleston will demonstrate some changes (my deck utilizes Life from the Loam, so we'll see what happens).

IMO, it would be far better to just let this become a "suggested" Banned list, and allow individual groups to decide for themselves whether or not this works for them. This is not a competitive format (although people do compete, it's is not inherently "competitive") and is more casual in nature. If a group wants to play with Power, then let them. If they want to play with Balance or Shaharzad, let them. If not, so be it. I play in the "Dream Wizards League" and at PT/GP events, so I follow the list that exists... But I don't see any reason to force people to adhere to this list that strictly. I think individual groups can better regulate themselves than to try to have all of us come up with what should or should not be Banned and have that apply to everyone universally.

_________________
"It's the wood that should fear your hand, not the other way around. No wonder you can't do it, you acquiesce to defeat before you even begin."


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 Post subject: Game Speed
AgePosted: 2006-Jul-14 12:05 pm 

Joined: 2006-Jul-14 12:02 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wherever I may roam
Seems to me that the game speed is rarely anything above glacial, and one of the cards we noticed really contributing to this was Maze of Ith. We're considering banning this in our local playgroup based on a few recent games.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2006-Jul-14 1:23 pm 

Joined: 2006-Jul-14 12:02 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wherever I may roam
A couple more points:
Back to Basics, Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Primal Order all seem exceptionally harmful in the format if you happen to be playing a mono-coloured deck in those colours. We've banned them locally for now.

Why ban Test of Endurance? The draft multiplayer rules the DCI put out say that "you win the game when all of your opponents lose the game", so it's only as much use as Chance Encounter or the others from the cycle. Surely it's better we invoke those rules rather than arbitrarily ban bad cards?


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2006-Jul-14 3:25 pm 

Joined: 2006-May-24 9:26 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Owings, Maryland
Nomad wrote:
Why ban Test of Endurance? The draft multiplayer rules the DCI put out say that "you win the game when all of your opponents lose the game", so it's only as much use as Chance Encounter or the others from the cycle. Surely it's better we invoke those rules rather than arbitrarily ban bad cards?


From the CompRules:

102.2. There are several ways to win the game.
102.2a A player still in the game wins the game if all of that player’s opponents have lost the game.
102.2b An effect may state that a player wins the game.
102.2c. In a multiplayer game between teams, a team with at least one player still in the game wins the game if all other teams have lost the game. Each player on the winning team wins the game, even if one or more of those players had previously lost that game.


Test of Endurance falls within the "An effect may state that a player wins the game.", in which case it doesn't matter if other players are still left in the game (unless it's Two-Headed Giant, Emperor, or Team). Definitely in a Free-For-All though, it would effectively allow a player to immediately win the game.

_________________
"It's the wood that should fear your hand, not the other way around. No wonder you can't do it, you acquiesce to defeat before you even begin."


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-Aug-10 2:50 am 

Joined: 2007-Aug-08 7:43 am
Age: Wyvern
Could we make the banned list and the banned generals sticky topics or put it in the Rules forum, or rules announcement forum?

I came by to look and it was more of a search than it should have been.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2007-Aug-13 8:51 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Kestell wrote:
I came by to look and it was more of a search than it should have been.


Good idea. I'll do that.

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