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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-06 10:35 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
herodotusjr wrote:
...
To say that you are not using Painter's Servant to either get value out of a card like Hibernation or combo off with a card like Teysa is disingenuous. Nobody who has enough investment in this format to argue for or against a particular card's banning is going to put a card like Painter's Servant to innocuous use.

Well, to be fair, I've argued for keeping Painters on the ban list and I've used it in non-degenerate ways. But I also played Gifts and Staff in non-degenerate ways as well because I made it a point to do so.
However, I understand that I am the exception and not the rule. And the only other times I ever saw Gifts played it was exactly to EoT fetch 'I win' pieces, and the only other times I saw Painters was with Iona or Teysa.

(I played Painters in my Oona deck along with stuff like Wrath of Marit Lage and Llawan, Cephalid Empress, or in Jaya with Spinal Villain because they're amusing interactions.)

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-06 11:30 am 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
There's nothing wrong, in this format, with cards that have color words or "choose a color" in their text boxes. Many are actually pretty good. Here's short list of cards I like, that are playable without Painter's Servant, and better if you draw him:

The most of the ones tempesteye mentioned
Teysa (what's wrong with a 2 card combo that controls creatures?)
Teferi's Moat
Story Circle
Glory
Jareth, Leonine Titan
Any of the Invasion Cycle dragons
Pentarch Paladin
Persecute
Scrying Glass
Mother of Runes
Sygg, River Guide
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
Knight of Dawn
Voice of All
Seht's Tiger
Sword of ... and ...

I'll stop digging there because I think I've made the point I wanted to make. Iona's the problem. I don't even acknowledge Grindstone anymore. That combo is too easy to beat.

As long as we can agree that Staff was banned because of it's association with Rofellos (a card that's been dealt with), and not because it deserves it without him, I have nothing more to say on the matter. The only other combo that doesn't require specific cards in hand or specific non-land permanents in play is Magus of the Coffers. That shouldn't be enough. I'm not going to talk about 3 card combos.

Is there something wrong with putting a Wrath and a "draw some cards" spell on the Mirror? That seems pretty sweet to me, and I'd probably play it for that. The biggest issue I have with Mirror on the list is it's the only combo card banned that needs to reach your turn again in order to win. Why is this card banned over the many other "I win next turn" card combos out there? How is this card on the list when Mind Over Matter and Survival of the Fittest aren't? Neither of those cards necessarily require an extra turn to win (although it helps, admittedly). Mind Over Matter doesn't even really have a legitimate use. I realize it's apples to oranges, but my point is this card is a) kind of a fun card b) relatively easy to deal with since it gives everyone a turn and c) not in the same league as legal cards that are broken as hell.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-06 12:07 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
trevor wrote:
Is there something wrong with putting a Wrath and a "draw some cards" spell on the Mirror? That seems pretty sweet to me, and I'd probably play it for that.

That's the sort of thing I wouldn't want to play against. A repeatable Wrath effect for no mana or card disadvantage? Yep, seems exactly why they put it on the ban list: It looks like it would be fun, but in actuality, ends up making games not fun.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-06 12:21 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Agreed. American_Kid wrote an article here (which I guess you've probably already seen, trevor) where he spelled out a really good theory on what makes Commander games fun.

American_Kid wrote:
Now, when I play Commander, my goal is to alter the state of the game every turn possible. The more your deck contributes to a game, the more fun you'll have playing it.

Counterspells don't change the physical board presence; they preserve it. Tutors, with the exceptions being anything similar to Tooth and Nail and Stonehewer Giant, don't change the physical board presence either. Mass land destruction, although it morphs the entire battlefield, preserves it for many future turns after. Taxing effects (Rhystic Study and Aura of Silence) also preserve board presence. Infinite combos result in empty board presence because everyone scoops. You probably might catch the theme by now. These are the most despised cards/strategies in EDH because they create stagnant game play, and stagnant game play is boring game play.

What he's saying is that games are fun when the game state is dynamic, which I can really get behind. Wrath every turn is about as stagnant as it gets. Draw spells on Panoptic Mirror are fun, Rite of Replication would be overpowered but kinda awesome, but any type of sweeper would blow.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-06 7:27 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
trevor wrote:
Sword of ... and ...

Yeah, I don't think that works how you want it to work. :P


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-06 7:50 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Fair enough about the Sword. Although I think it would still work if equipped beforehand. I don't think equipment falls off like enchantments do.

I feel like you're saying recursion is the opposite of what makes Commander fun, and therefore Mirror isn't ok. If that's true then I'd be happy to find you a list of much more powerful recursion engines than one that not only gives everyone a turn to answer it, but also requires a pretty huge mana investment.

I also get the impression that there's an overly biased opinion against creature control in this thread. This is the second time I've noticed people talking bad about 2 card combos that say, "you have to answer this permanent before creatures live," (the other being Teysa). I love creatures in my deck as much as the next guy, but God forbid you have to find a Disenchant once in a while before they're free and able to turn sideways again.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-06 8:00 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
trevor wrote:
Fair enough about the Sword. Although it would still work if equipped beforehand. I don't think equipment falls off like enchantments do.

Yeah it does. Exactly like auras.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-06 8:29 pm 
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Ok, nevermind.

This whole discussion has gotten me thinking about how much fun I think a mono-white Eight-and-a-half Tails deck would be to build. Would that still be the sort of deck you thin is griefing with PS?


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-06 9:17 pm 
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Location: Saskatchewan
While I am somewhat indifferent about Painter's Servant (leaning towards it keeping banned), I often wondered about something that I always forget to ask someone who is in the know. Doesn't using it with Grindstone and Eldrazi or similar engine cause an infinite loop that cannot be stopped thus resulting in a draw?

I believe the real trouble with the above mentioned combo kind of brings with it an issue though. It can be used in any type of deck with success, which is kind of annoying, and while any deck can run a counter to it in the form of an E-titan, who wants to have to run said eldrazi in every deck they run? Doesn't that run counter to building unique decks?

Maybe the real trouble with PS is that it combos SO well with practically everything, fun or not, that it is serving of an example that just causes some issue no matter where you go, or horribly screw over other decks that rely on something specific regarding colour (like saying green when someone is playing Teysa).


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-06 11:36 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Ukkmaster wrote:
Doesn't using it with Grindstone and Eldrazi or similar engine cause an infinite loop that cannot be stopped thus resulting in a draw?

No. You finish resolving Grindstone's effect, which empties the library and puts an Eldrazi trigger on the stack. Then you resolve the trigger, shuffling the graveyard back into the library.

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My Commander decks:
Damia, Sage of Stone - Non-obnoxious goodstuff
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Tokens, recursion, and lifegain
Vorel of the Hull Clade - Abusing counters for fun and profit


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-07 5:28 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ukkmaster wrote:
Maybe the real trouble with PS is that it combos SO well with practically everything, fun or not, that it is serving of an example that just causes some issue no matter where you go, or horribly screw over other decks that rely on something specific regarding colour (like saying green when someone is playing Teysa).


This is certainly one of the many griefer applications of PS. You can either turn your own Teysa into an infinite exile engine or completely blank the one across the table. Likewise, you can make an opposing Ulasht deck (or any other deck that relies on fair color synergies) cry.

trevor wrote:
This whole discussion has gotten me thinking about how much fun I think a mono-white Eight-and-a-half Tails deck would be to build. Would that still be the sort of deck you thin is griefing with PS?


It's close. 8.5 Tails is already such an a-hole. (Hint: If a card's function to repeatedly say "no" without advancing your position when an opponent tries to make progress, it's probably a griefer card.)

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-07 6:35 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
It's close. 8.5 Tails is already such an a-hole. (Hint: If a card's function to repeatedly say "no" without advancing your position when an opponent tries to make progress, it's probably a griefer card.)


8.5 tails doesn't really impede your opponents from making progress, it impedes them from impeding your own progress. It's "bleaching" effect is usually only relevant because it's protection effect. It doesn't work well with most of the interesting "color word" cards, especially if it's your commander.

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Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-07 6:59 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It does if your opponent is running auras or equipment or his game plan involves attacking with a creature (especially one without trample) or using spot removal to eliminate threats. Since most non-combo strategies require a minimum of two of those elements, I'd say 8.5 Tails definitely impedes progress.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-07 8:04 am 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
8.5 doesn't allow you to target your opponent's stuff. There shouldn't be any problem with messing with opposing auras/equipment.

8.5 would be used with color word cards that say "choose a color". I thought I illustrated that when I listed some of those cards above. If Painter's Servant or any of those color word cards were drawn, I would obviously name white.

I have a hard time feeling like I'm griefing my opponents by playing a card that doesn't let them spot remove my stuff or attack me. That sounds like a pretty basic good quality control card to me. IMO, a lot of the people in this thread have an exaggerated view of what "fair" is when it comes to control cards. I forget who wrote the articles, but it was when they were previewing Persist before Shadowmoor came out and subsequently Unmake before Eventide came out. I think the #1 quote of the articles was "answers need answers". One player starts playing creatures. The other starts playing creature removal. The first starts playing cards that stop his creatures from getting removed (this is where we're at, the allegedly "unfair" step). The second starts playing answers that GET AROUND those protective spells. That's the natural evolution of deck building.

The thing about the Grindstone combo is that, while everyone can play it, an easy deterrent is generally enough (psychologically) to make people not want to waste deck space on it anymore. Their combo fails, through no active action whatsoever on the part of the opposing play, and then the combo seems "stupid". If you later take the Eldrazi out of your deck, chances are that player still has a bad taste in their mouth from the last time they tried the combo and it failed. Basically I'm saying your conditioning your play group to accept the futility of trying that combo.

Again, Iona is (IMO) the only "real" combo with Painter's Servant. But she impedes at least one opponent's progress even without PS. Painter's Servant doesn't do much of anything broken without Iona. And yes, I am saying that all those "counter any spell" or "kill all creatures" combos aren't broken or even that powerful. Most of them are actually really weak due to the narrowness or the cards when NOT teamed up with PS. Really? Lifeforce?


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Mar-07 10:00 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
trevor wrote:
8.5 doesn't allow you to target your opponent's stuff. There shouldn't be any problem with messing with opposing auras/equipment.

...

Most of them are actually really weak due to the narrowness or the cards when NOT teamed up with PS. Really? Lifeforce?

/nitpick You can target any perm with Tails first ability.

Second, with the absurd amount of mana Green can generate, and with Seedborn in pretty much all green decks, yes, Lifeforce.
If you don't think Lifeforce/Deathgrip are broken with Painters then you need to reevaluate.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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